Atalanta of Chester/Hanne Knutsen trial

[sarabande]

here's pic, only slightly out of context, for a domain and risk of collision for a tanker. Note that (as you will intuitively know) the domian extends well forward of the vessel, with a shape influenced by Colregs. Data population is for 2896 reported incidents in 2008 in the Baltic, for head-on approaches.

View attachment 36251

The largest number of head-on approaches (16%) occcur at just under 1 nM on the port bow of the tanker.


Flaming's maths is right. It is clear that a too close approach position was allowed to develop by a small manoeuverable boat heading towards a large clumsily manoeuvrable tanker. Had Atalanta considered the whole domain within which HK could exist (i.e. to permit a close approach or collision potential to come into existence) , then he should never have allowed his boat into that domain.

That corner of the Solent round Brambles is not a dodgems fairground ride.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The article implies the Atalanta had already made her Southerly turn to let the HK through when the escort told her to change course.

An escort boat had told them to change course, effectively releasing them to bear off on their way to their next mark, and still the Atalanta pressed on southwards. Looks like we won't be getting that explained.

 

[A1Sailor]

What, exactly, was said by the man in the escort boat?

EDIT:
I think it was something along the lines of "start the engine and clear the area", but no suggestion of which way to go...
http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/107..._headlights__when_vessel_crashed_into_tanker/

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

What, exactly, was said by the man in the escort boat?

I don't suppose we'll ever know for sure, but I think we can be certain they didn't say "hold your course", so the Atalanta was perfectly free to carry on her way North-East-ish.

 

[A1Sailor]

Indeed - but if he said "Clear the area; there is a tanker coming" that might have been as useful as a f*rt in a spacesuit! Reminds me a bit of a game of Frogger...

 

[oldbilbo]

I'm intrigued by the different concepts of 'skipper' - what the term means to different people. I'm also conscious that the term has no definition I know of within the IRPCS..... and it is the IRPCS that is/should be of significance here and not the RRS.

Am I right in thinking that the ColRegs make reference to the 'person in charge'....? So just who is the person in charge, who takes responsibility for the activities of a racing boat - with its crew - such as Flaming's?

I recall, from the world of military aviation, the very clear directive that the designated and authorised captain of the aircraft is responsible for everything that befalls that machine and its crew, from the moment (s)he signs for it until (s)he signs it back in again. That principle is borrowed directly, I believe, from maritime and naval law and practice.

"You can delegate authority ( for specified tasks ), but you cannot delegate responsibility"

 

[l'escargot]

The article implies the Atalanta had already made her Southerly turn to let the HK through when the escort told her to change course.

An escort boat had told them to change course, effectively releasing them to bear off on their way to their next mark, and still the Atalanta pressed on southwards. Looks like we won't be getting that explained.

I think one report said that he was concerned that if he did bear off to port he would then be passing between the tanker and the escort boat leading it.

 

[benjenbav]

I think one report said that he was concerned that if he did bear off to port he would then be passing between the tanker and the escort boat leading it.

Lt Wilson is also reported to have said he couldn't turn to starboard for fear of being mown down because he couldn't outrun the HK and he appears to have thought the best bet was to blaze down the ship's port side as it turned northwards like Luke Skywalker avoiding the empire's forces on the final approach to the death star.

This may or may not be culpable; leave that to the mag.

But if it had been me... seeing the ship blocking the sun plus a red-faced man telling me to jeff off out of the area, I'd've done a swift 180 and headed for Southampton.

 

[A1Sailor]

Was the ship heading towards Southampton?

 

[VicS]

Was the ship heading towards Southampton?

Fawley Just a short distance up Southampton water

 

[l'escargot]

Lt Wilson is also reported to have said he couldn't turn to starboard for fear of being mown down because he couldn't outrun the HK and he appears to have thought the best bet was to blaze down the ship's port side as it turned northwards like Luke Skywalker avoiding the empire's forces on the final approach to the death star.

This may or may not be culpable; leave that to the mag.

But if it had been me... seeing the ship blocking the sun plus a red-faced man telling me to jeff off out of the area, I'd've done a swift 180 and headed for Southampton.

He did turn to starboard - if he had turned towards Southampton he would have got hit up the transom...

 

[benjenbav]

He did turn to starboard - if he had turned towards Southampton he would have got hit up the transom...

Are you sure, Mark? I thought he was heading pretty much directly towards the esplanade when the impact occurred with Southampton astern.

 

[l'escargot]

Are you sure, Mark? I thought he was heading pretty much directly towards the esplanade when the impact occurred with Southampton astern.

He got into that position by turning to starboard, he was originally heading parallel with Esplanade but turned because he didn't think he could get across in front of the tanker as it turned around the Brambles. Taking another turn to starboard would have put him bow to wind and turning towards Southampton would have had the tanker chasing him at that stage.

 

[rotrax]

I am reading all of these "wot he did's"-but surely anyone who is remotely familiar with that area of the Solent will be aware of what large vessels do when turning into Southampton Water.

In a race or not, you dont stay near large ships if you are sensible-keep well clear.

That is what the INTENTION of the exclusion zone is, however badly written it may be.

As I see it he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and did not put as much distance between his vessel and the tanker as soon as he was informed to keep clear by the Harbourmaster.

Own Goal.

 

[lpdsn]

I am reading all of these "wot he did's"-but surely anyone who is remotely familiar with that area of the Solent will be aware of what large vessels do when turning into Southampton Water.

In a race or not, you dont stay near large ships if you are sensible-keep well clear.

That is what the INTENTION of the exclusion zone is, however badly written it may be.

As I see it he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and did not put as much distance between his vessel and the tanker as soon as he was informed to keep clear by the Harbourmaster.

Own Goal.

Yeah, he should've just pressed Ctrl-Alt-Del when he saw the tanker like any decent armchair sailor.

I'm interested in what he did and why so I can learn from it in case I ever get in a similar situation in the future through whatever actions I or someone else has taken. One thing that is pretty clear is that he was trying to keep clear however ill-judged his means of attempting it turned out to be. If anything his fixation with what "...anyone who is remotely familiar with that area of the Solent will be aware of what large vessels do when turning into Southampton Water" seems to have been a big part of his problem.

When anyone who comes along with the attitude that they just keep out of the way and they're too good to make a mistake then I think "Bullsh!t".

 

[lw395]

Yeah, he should've just pressed Ctrl-Alt-Del when he saw the tanker like any decent armchair sailor.

I'm interested in what he did and why so I can learn from it in case I ever get in a similar situation in the future through whatever actions I or someone else has taken. One thing that is pretty clear is that he was trying to keep clear however ill-judged his means of attempting it turned out to be. If anything his fixation with what "...anyone who is remotely familiar with that area of the Solent will be aware of what large vessels do when turning into Southampton Water" seems to have been a big part of his problem.

When anyone who comes along with the attitude that they just keep out of the way and they're too good to make a mistake then I think "Bullsh!t".

+1
He knew what the tankers always do.
He saw the tanker apparently doing that initially and planned around it.
Then we get into grey areas and it all goes pearshaped.
There, or somewhere pretty similar, but for the grace of god, go many people.

I see it as being a bit like prosecuting a cyclist who gets his bike flattened by a lorry.
With overtones of the lorry owners wanting to ban bikes from 'their' roads.

 

[oldbilbo]

Remind me again.... what are the three most useless objects on a racing sailboat....?

Was it 'an umbrella, a bicycle, and a serving......N...... O......?'

 

[l'escargot]

...When anyone who comes along with the attitude that they just keep out of the way and they're too good to make a mistake then I think "Bullsh!t".

And they best steer clear of the Central Solent as they don't fully appreciate the potential risks or how it can all go wrong very quickly when boats don't behave in a predictable way.

 

[Poignard]

Remind me again.... what are the three most useless objects on a racing sailboat....?

Was it 'an umbrella, a bicycle, and a serving......N...... O......?'

So retired ones are OK, then?

 

[Brightwork]

Remind me again.... what are the three most useless objects on a racing sailboat....?

Was it 'an umbrella, a bicycle, and a serving......N...... O......?'

I've never seen a bucket of Crabfat put to good use on a racing sailboat, but I have seen bicycles put to good use on many occasions.