Atalanta of Chester/Hanne Knutsen trial

[rotrax]

Someone hit a ship while bike racing? I'm not surprised the organisers were found to be negligent. Didn't the competitors complain about the track being damp?

The inquiry was subsequent to an ambulance parked in a slip road off of the circuit. The brakes failed on a competitors motorcycle and the collision was off track into the ambulance.
The case was settled by the insurance but the clear implication was that had the Clerk of the Course insisted on the ambulance being elswhere the fatality would not have occured.
This was where my sport examined itself and its regulation and recomendations to clubs and improved them to avoid-where possible-further similar issues
Marshalls being in protected dugouts was another. A bike and rider went down and the marshalls on a corner were hit by the bike. Now they have protection where required.


My scenario was possibly a million to one chance.

The bike and rider hitting the ambulance was thought to be as well-ambulances had been parked there since about 1954 with no problems. The increase in the number of events, the number of competitors and improvements in the track surface and quality of racing tyres were all found to be factors in the unfortunate incident, not just the failure of one motorcycles brakes.

To precis my origional point once more-Organisers have an implicit duty of care. If the racing boat clubs and officials feel they have it covered-fine.

If the **** does hit the fan just watch out........................

 

[KevB]

^

No need to go outside the buoyed channel. As I said, space is always left.

There are no "Royal" clubs in Chichester Harbour. So the answer to your question is no.

Sorry to disagree. The start line may not span the whole channel (but does in almost all cases) but the boats jockeying for position do. I am amazed that clubs are allowed to effectively cause havoc for transiting vessels for a period leading up to race start.

 

[rotrax]

Thank you.

 

[A1Sailor]

I'd be interested in their suggested route Warsash->Alum Bay without breaking their guidelines, but I agree that does look a gift for a Barrister trying to make a yacht look irresponsible.

I'm still unconvinced that it's a big problem. I've been talking to a chap who competes in four & two wheeled motorsport this afternoon. He doesn't think that motorsport has a legal problem at all. He's never heard of a civil case. He claims Italy has criminal legislation aimed at motorsport but is unaware of a big legal issue in the UK.

So I'd say that not only does Sailing pretty much have its house in order but it looks like motorsport does too.

I'd like to see some examples of recent cases in both sports.

He who quotes selectively does himself no favours. It goes on to recommend what to do if entering a big ship channel cannot be avoided.

 

[bluemoongaffer]

You really do like pontificating on a subject about which you appear to know little.

At low water, start lines will also necessarily occupy some of the deep channel but space is always left for non-racing traffic, which most thankfully have the good sense and courtesy to use.

Your apparent belief that race courses are randomly set without consideration for safety or the needs of other Harbour users is entirely wide of the mark.

You may have some good points to make about the relative dangers of motorsport versus yacht / dinghy racing but your belief that Chi Harbour is a haven of responsible dinghy / dayboat race courses does not match my experience and does your argument no help whatsoever. I sail there most weekends and races are always in the channel at the entrance and little if any a consideration is given to other water users (by either the organisers, safety boats or competitors). The idea that some of the deep channel space is always left for non-racing traffic, is simply not true. Fortunately, most non-competing boats are quite happy to steer around competitors, slow down / give way when we're on starboard etc and we do our best to let you get on with your fun.

If you look at the speeds of boats like foiling moths & RS400s, they are so much faster than anything else on the water - and their course & speed are usually pretty eratic. An accident waiting to happen - Rotrax has a point

 

[rotrax]

Once again-thank you.

 

[rotrax]

Rotrax
I guess most of us resent the idea of more regulation / red tape, hence the negative responses to your comments. I sit on the sailing committee of my club and we groan every time our resident lawyer and regular RO / umpire suggests we add to the paperwork with deeper risk assessments etc.

I do think there is one big relevant difference between organising a speedway event and most yacht races; the speedway event is held on private land where the organisers have a lot of freedom to dictate how things are run on the track, and therefore take responsibility for doing it as safely as poss.
The Cowes week races are held in the sea, not at all private, where a comprehensive (!) set of laws and regulations already exist to regulate how we act, especially vis-à-vis in meeting other boats. And there are I believe maritime laws that explicitly place the responsibility for a vessel's actions on the skipper (I cannot quote what law this is but doubtless someone here can).
Net effect of these differences is to significantly lessen the legal responsibility of the organising yacht club.

Well said-thank you for the "Back Room" information.
Speedway and indeed circuit racing are normally carried out in Public Places-places of entertainment.
Most of the safety regulation is to protect the public from the bikes and riders.
There was specific regulation in regard to the CoC's responsibility for a safe envioroment for the riders and officials.
As you may imagine, some of this was a little ambiguous in certain areas.
There was some years ago controversy over televised Speedway meetings taking part in far from ideal track conditions, usually after heavy rain. The CoC's were pressurised because of the TV schedule. After several riders were injured during these instances rider pressure kicked that into touch.
If, as you say, the clubs have some level of protection from possible legal action that goes a long way into answering my concerns-which were for the clubs and the governing body.
However, as previous posters have alluded, some clubs are not helping their cause.

 

[benjenbav]

Well said-thank you for the "Back Room" information.
Speedway and indeed circuit racing are normally carried out in Public Places-places of entertainment.
Most of the safety regulation is to protect the public from the bikes and riders.
There was specific regulation in regard to the CoC's responsibility for a safe envioroment for the riders and officials.
As you may imagine, some of this was a little ambiguous in certain areas.
There was some years ago controversy over televised Speedway meetings taking part in far from ideal track conditions, usually after heavy rain. The CoC's were pressurised because of the TV schedule. After several riders were injured during these instances rider pressure kicked that into touch.
If, as you say, the clubs have some level of protection from possible legal action that goes a long way into answering my concerns-which were for the clubs and the governing body.
However, as previous posters have alluded, some clubs are not helping their cause.

I might be wrong but it seems to me that translating a worry about a 35' cruiser/racer sailboat hitting a 100,000 ton ship into motorcycle racing terms would require writing rules for the m/bike competitors not to crash into Swindon.

This Atalanta/Hanne Knutsen incident resulted in precisely no fatalities and really boils down to not much more than a scratched paintjob on the ship, some broken bits on a privately-owned pleasure boat and some red faces.

It isn't happening all of the time and it's not a big deal other than being of passing interest to fans of youtube "fail" videos.

 

[ffiill]

Apart from wondering whether the incident was a "should have gone to spec savers"ad that went wrong sadly I come across individuals who exhibit this kind of behaviour evey time I load up my trailer in town with sand,concrete blocks;coal and the like.
I will be traveling for example up to a roundabout leaving plenty of space for stopping when someone nicks into the gap and I come within an inch of back ending him.Or waiting to join the traffic he clocks me or a big lorry heading towards him and nips into the line in front.
The only time I towed a boat ,a humble 19ft Seawitch there I was traveling down the one way in Lancaster with less than good brakes going slowly and leaving plenty of space to stop when out of a side street pops one of these idiots.
This individual deserves prosecution and there is no excuse for his behaviour.Big ship poor maneuverability and very poor stopping time-do not go within a mile(literally)

 

[rotrax]

I'm still unconvinced that it's a big problem. I've been talking to a chap who competes in four & two wheeled motorsport this afternoon. He doesn't think that motorsport has a legal problem at all. He's never heard of a civil case. He claims Italy has criminal legislation aimed at motorsport but is unaware of a big legal issue in the UK.

So I'd say that not only does Sailing pretty much have its house in order but it looks like motorsport does too.

I'd like to see some examples of recent cases in both sports.

You are right Toad-Motorsport in the UK does not have a problem.
The RAC, Speedway Control Board and the ACU put their houses in order some time ago so they are in the position they enjoy today.
None of the cases are recent because of the outstanding guidance of the relevant Governing bodies.
The ones that I were involved in were mid 90'S IIRC.

 

[l'escargot]

Indeed, although the Port of Southampton suggests the following:

What can you do?
Avoid sailing in the commercial ship channels...

http://www.southamptonvts.co.uk/Yachting_and_Leisure/

Unfortunately to comply with that, boats sailing from the Hamble could never go beyond Ocean Village in one direction and Portsmouth Harbour in the other. Boats sailing out of Beaulieu fare slightly better, they could get to Cowes via the Needles, going round the Bridge Buoy...

 

[BelleSerene]

Someone hit a ship while bike racing? I'm not surprised the organisers were found to be negligent. Didn't the competitors complain about the track being damp?

**** happens. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b424iGkWe0Q

 

[A1Sailor]

Unfortunately to comply with that, boats sailing from the Hamble could never go beyond Ocean Village in one direction and Portsmouth Harbour in the other. Boats sailing out of Beaulieu fare slightly better, they could get to Cowes via the Needles, going round the Bridge Buoy...

He who quotes selectively does himself no favours. It goes on to recommend what to do if entering a big ship channel cannot be avoided.

 

[Uricanejack]

Has any sailing committee in the UK been sued for failing to draw attention to something in a race briefing?

I doubt anyone will find an example & no sailing club I've ever been a member of has been sued for negligence.

I think sailing clubs are at more legal risk from members tripping over a paving slab in the carpark than running a race in an area with shipping channels.

No idea, But I wouldn't be surprised if an American had.

 

[fireball]

If you look at the speeds of boats like foiling moths & RS400s, they are so much faster than anything else on the water - and their course & speed are usually pretty eratic.

You were doing alright until you seem to suggest that Foiling moths and RS400s are "so much faster than anything else on the water"
I'll give you foiling moths - they are fast once they get up...

but RS400s ?! are you sure?!

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

but RS400s ?! are you sure?!

Yeah, terrific fun but not exceptional. Not erratic either, a doddle to sail.

 

[fireball]

Yeah, terrific fun but not exceptional. Not erratic either, a doddle to sail.

well I wouldn't put it quite like that - they take a bit of getting used to - especially bearing away in strong winds - but yer - fun, lively to a point ... not sure I've ever felt out of control in mine ... and I have sailed them in some strong winds ...

 

[Keen_Ed]

Any reports from yesterday?

 

[flaming]

Any reports from yesterday?

I thought they were postponed until the 22nd?

 

[npf1]

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/107..._headlights__when_vessel_crashed_into_tanker/