Atalanta of Chester/Hanne Knutsen trial

sarabande

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it seems certain that there will be reviews of the harbour and pilotage rules, locally and perhaps nationally, as a result of this case.

Is it not in the public interest that these proceedings are made available for the marine community to read, mark, learn and inwardly digest ? For free ?
 

Poignard

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In a nutshell

Forget the stuff about GPS tracks, etc.

Let's go back to the basics of the collision. There's a b*****y great big tanker heading West (ish) along the Solent. I'm in a racing yacht heading South (ish). Assuming I'm keeping a proper lookout, I have 2 options. Option 1. I decide to zip in front of the tanker, because I know I can out-run it, and I know exactly not only what he intends to do, but what he is in fact going to do . Option 2. I loose lots of boat lengths in the race, by dipping it, and its attendant "stern-first" tug, (after all the whole assembly is several 100 of metres long). I choose Option 1, and get away with it - that's a brilliant call. I choose Option 1, and it don't work for any reason: I'm in deep poo.

Simple ! (though not an easy call to make on the water, at the time.). IMHO the yacht Skipper made the wrong decision, and is extremely lucky that no-one was killed.

This post renders the remaining 341 redundant.


:)
 

Seatrout

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If only they had dropped an anchor. Now, what sort of anchor do you think would have worked best?

On a more serious note, I think this case and thread does show how very difficult it can be to do what some people advocate and apply the IRPCS simply, unequivocally and clearly to any given situation.
Yep there is black and there is white, both of which are easily interpreted, but when they mix and become grey? Some still argue black and white when its grey. Are you suggesting for a moment that there are those who cannot recognise grey and therefore unable to compute a solution using anything other than black or white rules? :rolleyes:

BTW a wooden anchor may have been best!
 

lw395

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This post renders the remaining 341 redundant.


:)

I don't think so, the post you refer to misses the point hopelessly.
The Yacht is trying to go East for one thing, and has come a long way south precisely to go south of the tankers whole track.
 

lw395

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it seems certain that there will be reviews of the harbour and pilotage rules, locally and perhaps nationally, as a result of this case.

Is it not in the public interest that these proceedings are made available for the marine community to read, mark, learn and inwardly digest ? For free ?

I suspect we will see harbour authorities wanting more powers, more rules which don't actually make anything safer.
 

bedouin

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Two observations:
1) Although many published chartlets show the Precautionary Area (aka AoC) to be bounded by the line between Gurnard and NE Gurnard, Admiralty charts show it as extending further W, as does the plot being discussed. In fact the bylaw which creates it (quoted in full in a number of posts in this thread) does not define ANY western boundary. (It may be that there's a legal definition of the precise bounds of the "main channel" referred to by the byelaw, but I must say I doubt it). So no question IMHO of the ship leaving the PA.

2) In any case the bylaw states that the MPZ exists while the ship is in the Precautionary Area. If a ship did happen to be on any edge of the PA headed straight out of the PA, then the MPZ would extend 1km outside the PA.

I'm still curious as to why they didn't throw in the charge of entering an MPZ in addition to the charges made. I doubt we'll ever know.
The problem with that is that as a ship turns round the brambles - you interpretation would exclude pretty much all of the central solent, which is not a reasonable interpretation. In this particular instance it seems likely that the atlanta entered the area by virtue of the tanker turning, rather than her own actions.

I think they are not prosecuting under that rule because there are a number of issues with it - for a start is it actually law - can you find the date on which the byelaws were confirmed? secondly was the tanker actually displaying the required day shape? Doesn't appear in the picture. Thirdly I expect it would be determined that in the case of the ship turning the law either did not make sense as there was no way for the yacht to avoid entering the zone
 

lpdsn

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Forget the stuff about GPS tracks, etc.

Let's go back to the basics of the collision. There's a b*****y great big tanker heading West (ish) along the Solent. I'm in a racing yacht heading South (ish). Assuming I'm keeping a proper lookout, I have 2 options. Option 1. I decide to zip in front of the tanker, because I know I can out-run it, and I know exactly not only what he intends to do, but what he is in fact going to do . Option 2. I loose lots of boat lengths in the race, by dipping it, and its attendant "stern-first" tug, (after all the whole assembly is several 100 of metres long). I choose Option 1, and get away with it - that's a brilliant call. I choose Option 1, and it don't work for any reason: I'm in deep poo.

Simple ! (though not an easy call to make on the water, at the time.). IMHO the yacht Skipper made the wrong decision, and is extremely lucky that no-one was killed.

Well it's clear that you'd have chosen option 2.

It would appear that Lt Wotsisname chose option 2 as well, but maybe because of the actions of the tanker/dead MoBo and other restrictions, like the wind direction, it didn't work. Ironically, option 1 would probably have worked in this particular case (but maybe not others).

So don't be so self-righteous, on another day it could be you on trial.
 

toad_oftoadhall

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I think they are not prosecuting under that rule because there are a number of issues with it - for a start is it actually law - can you find the date on which the byelaws were confirmed? secondly was the tanker actually displaying the required day shape? Doesn't appear in the picture. Thirdly I expect it would be determined that in the case of the ship turning the law either did not make sense as there was no way for the yacht to avoid entering the zone

I really like this reasoning.

The MCA have not been shy about throwing charges at the Atlanta. Yet they've chosen not to go with the MPZ charge. Clearly there's a reason for that. It might even be that although the law is there and was broken the MCA simply don't think it's reasonable to pursue it in this case, or that the fine isn't big enough to be worth collecting. But I like Bedouin's thougts better.
 

l'escargot

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The problem with that is that as a ship turns round the brambles - you interpretation would exclude pretty much all of the central solent, which is not a reasonable interpretation. In this particular instance it seems likely that the atlanta entered the area by virtue of the tanker turning, rather than her own actions.

I think they are not prosecuting under that rule because there are a number of issues with it - for a start is it actually law - can you find the date on which the byelaws were confirmed? secondly was the tanker actually displaying the required day shape? Doesn't appear in the picture. Thirdly I expect it would be determined that in the case of the ship turning the law either did not make sense as there was no way for the yacht to avoid entering the zone
The issue may be as to how the Precautionary Area is defined in the words of the actual byelaw. It says where it starts, on a line between two buoys, and it says where it ends, on a line between two buoys. The bit inbetween is only described as "the main navigable channel" the exact location of which could be subject to argument. Some diagrams even show it as going beyond the edge of the channel and extend it to the western boundary of the Port of Southampton.

The day shape could also be significant in a defence under the byelaw which says "For the purpose of indicating the presence of the Moving Prohibited Zone the master of any vessel of over 150 metres length overall shall display on the vessel, where it can best be seen, by day, a black cylinder...".

All technicalities but probably enough to make a prosecution under the byelaws look unlikely to succeed.
 

JumbleDuck

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Yep there is black and there is white, both of which are easily interpreted, but when they mix and become grey? Some still argue black and white when its grey. Are you suggesting for a moment that there are those who cannot recognise grey and therefore unable to compute a solution using anything other than black or white rules? :rolleyes:

Someone (I cannot remember who) on a another thread (I cannot remember which) has been taking serious issue with my contention that it is necessary to interpret the IRPCS rules for particular situations. I think that anyone who expects to find an explicit and unambiguous single rule to cover any conceivable situation is a little misguided.
 

JumbleDuck

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I really like this reasoning.

The MCA have not been shy about throwing charges at the Atlanta. Yet they've chosen not to go with the MPZ charge. Clearly there's a reason for that. It might even be that although the law is there and was broken the MCA simply don't think it's reasonable to pursue it in this case, or that the fine isn't big enough to be worth collecting. But I like Bedouin's thougts better.

Would the MCA prosecute for local bylaw breaches?
 

AntarcticPilot

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All technicalities but probably enough to make a prosecution under the byelaws look unlikely to succeed.

IANAL, and may be entirely wrong here, but isn't it the situation that the infringement of the IRPCS is criminal law, and the bye-laws are civil law? In that case, as far as I'm aware, you can't be charged with both in the same court because the criteria for a guilty verdict are different. Criminal law requires proof beyond reasonable doubt; civil law is only balance of probabilities. Even if he's found not guilty under the charges he's facing now, couldn't he still be charged under the bye-law at a later date? A bit like OJ Simpson being found not guilty of murder, and then facing civil charges for damages?
 

l'escargot

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IANAL, and may be entirely wrong here, but isn't it the situation that the infringement of the IRPCS is criminal law, and the bye-laws are civil law? In that case, as far as I'm aware, you can't be charged with both in the same court because the criteria for a guilty verdict are different. Criminal law requires proof beyond reasonable doubt; civil law is only balance of probabilities. Even if he's found not guilty under the charges he's facing now, couldn't he still be charged under the bye-law at a later date? A bit like OJ Simpson being found not guilty of murder, and then facing civil charges for damages?
I don't honestly know whether he could be charged under byelaws as well. I don't see why not as they would be totally different from the current charges. The only thing that may stop it is that if someone is charged with two similar offences for the same incident but of differing seriousness, usually only the most serious is proceeded with. I think the defences would still stand though - the precautionary area would still be ill defined and the tanker was still not indicating the MPZ as it was obliged to do under the byelaws. Nothing would be changed with the lower burden of proof in those cases.
 
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A1Sailor

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Well it's clear that you'd have chosen option 2.

It would appear that Lt Wotsisname chose option 2 as well, but maybe because of the actions of the tanker/dead MoBo and other restrictions, like the wind direction, it didn't work. Ironically, option 1 would probably have worked in this particular case (but maybe not others).

So don't be so self-righteous, on another day it could be you on trial.

Wilson.
 

John.edwards

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Hmmm. Let me get this right. Now the HK is in the wrong for being in a major shipping channel it cannot leave and has difficulty manoevering, and has attempted to avoid collision with a disabled power vessel and struck a racing yacht that was in the shipping channel, in a an area where special restrictions apply when large vessels are navigating and in a defined zone where they must keep clear.

Got it :)
 

l'escargot

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Hmmm. Let me get this right. Now the HK is in the wrong for being in a major shipping channel it cannot leave and has difficulty manoevering, and has attempted to avoid collision with a disabled power vessel and struck a racing yacht that was in the shipping channel, in a an area where special restrictions apply when large vessels are navigating and in a defined zone where they must keep clear.

Got it :)
All the vessels, including the tanker, had obligations in that area which I think is what the discussion is about. The actual trial is about whether or not the yacht did meet it's specific obligations under 3 (or so) regulations.
 

Resolution

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Hmmm. Let me get this right. Now the HK is in the wrong for being in a major shipping channel it cannot leave and has difficulty manoevering, and has attempted to avoid collision with a disabled power vessel and struck a racing yacht that was in the shipping channel, in a an area where special restrictions apply when large vessels are navigating and in a defined zone where they must keep clear.

Got it :)

I think a number of the persistent posters on this thread are reacting to the Day 1 chorus of total condemnations of the yacht skipper. Remarks like "What a plonker" etc etc.
Clearly he did make a wrong decision somewhere, because he ended up with a serious collision. What some of us who are familiar with the area (and the practicalities of mixing yachts and big ships in confined waters) are questioning is:
Did he break any laws?
Should he have been prosecuted?

Admittedly, after a solid week of chewing over the same facts and half facts, some of the arguments are becoming a bit extreme. Still better than usual YBW forum standard!
 
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