Astern long keel. Last question!!

[pcatterall]

Did a bit of practice yesterday but still cocked up our berthing!
From dead in the water we are starting to move astern And then putting about 40degrees of turn on the rudder, as our speed picks up she does start to turn but then when we try to take that turn off she continues to turn in that direction. We are now thinking that we should straighten up the rudder as soon as there is even a slight indication that we are turning. Does that sound reasonable!!

 

[Porthandbuoy]

Try it and see. Then try it with a beam wind blowing the bow off one way or the other.
I've performed many a multi-point turn getting out of a marina!
Don't worry about it, just keep your morse controls well greased. :encouragement:

PS. I never, ever, try to berth stern first.

 

[Richard10002]

Sounds reasonable to me. When practicing in open water, try everything to see what works.

 

[BabaYaga]

I am sure this varies between long keellers, but in astern my boat is mainly influenced by two forces: Prop wash, that kicks the stern to port and any side wind, that makes the bow fall off. So depending on the situation, these forces may counteract or add up. How the rudder is operated will have some effect too, but fairly limited.
I will always start by assessing the two main ones. And I also never berth stern to.

 

[pmagowan]

What were you trying to do? It is normal in a long keeler to go bow into a berth and reverse out. It then doesn't matter which way she turns as you can use blasts of forward and back to spin on the spot using prop walk and some wash on the rudder. You have little control even with way on in reverse.

 

[Aeolus]

Mine is a long fin so probably not as tricky as your boat but still resistant to controlled astern motion. I find that once my boat achieves a speed astern of approx 2kt, she will steer as long as I am modest in my expectations. I wouldn't try a 40 degree adjustment - I'm pretty sure I would lose control. But given enough room to build up momentum and gently steer her towards my target destination, I can park her stern to. No use at all from a standing start in tight spaces so I try to avoid the need.

I suggest that you should try to build up the speed before you start to turn her- that way you can feel/see her response and fine-tune the steering accordingly.

 

[doug748]

Don't expect much in reverse. The expert on board (Tom Cunliffe) could hardly get a Twister to reverse upwind at all, and then under:

".....what might pass for some sort of control at a drunk’s wedding."

See here:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/going-astern-with-twin-long-and-fin-keels-2-34582

A chum of mine could put his Nicholson 31 into a berth backwards but only with a good breeze up the transom.

 

[stevie69p]

I shall be following this thread as I have just bought a long keeler, and so far haven't been able to steer in the conventional sense in reverse. I go into my berth bows in after having performed a 180 degree about turn in forward. Coming out, I engage reverse which kicks the stern to port and the bow out from the pontoon to stb'd, then i get her into neutral with short squirts of astern. Once out beyond the pontoon finger, see which way the bow blows and then go forward, with a turn to port if able to drive straight out of the marina, or hard helm to stb'd and max revs to kick her stern round, then in reverse (prop walk to port) and another burst of forward with helm fully over to stb'd. Certainly makes for interesting manoeuvring!

I tried practising in the harbour area in reverse and the rudder had very little effect at all...

 

[rotrax]

Our new boat is a shallow draught long keeled motor sailer with a huge pilot house, and thus windage. She draws 1.1 metres aft, has a shallower cut away forefoot and, unlike any of our previous boats has a bow thruster.

She was our choice due to slowly increasing physical problems-my knees and First Mates hip. We can board when stern to from the large flat swim platform, up a shallow step and through the gate onto the rear cockpit. From there it is another low step through the door into the pilot house. Inside there are three shallow steps from the pilot house into the rest of the accomadation. So, a much easier boat for us to move onto and around than a conventional aft cockpit yacht.

Due to the above, First Mate tries to berth by going into a finger stern to. Jarrow Lily's prop pulls hard to port. By using this natural tendency and the bow thruster going in astern is much easier than our previous long keelers.

As others have stated, the rudder has far less effect than you would expect. Practicing has showed First Mate-who does ALL the helming coming alongside or berthing-that the prop walk and bow thruster are the main inputs.

I always fender both sides and have plenty of warps attatched on each side.

On last years Island Packet Owners Association rally to the Southampton boat show we watched two owners reverse out over 100 metres from Southampton Town Quay Marina using gentle astern and bow thruster pulses to keep things straight. This gave first mate the cofidence to do the same, which worked well.

Without a bow thruster it would have been very tricky. Or with a blow on the bow............................

Like the old musicians throw away line;-

" How do you get to Carnigie Hall? "

" Practice man-you gotta practice...... "

 

[Rafiki]

I agree with some others - a Bow Thruster is the answer ! Yes they are expensive say £4-6k fitted. Just think of it as part of the cost of the boat and it might not appear too bad. Having bought my boat 18 months ago travails when reversing resulted in a bow thruster being fitted two months later, to quote from a crew member following a recent windy exit from a marina where the normal propwalk didn't help " we only need another close escape like that for the bow-thruster to have paid for itself"

 

[pvb]

My old boat was sort of a long-keeler, a Hallberg-Rassy 352. I didn't have a bow thruster. After a lot of practise, I could go astern under a reasonable amount of control in most circumstances. It's vital to try different techniques. One thing I found useful was to put the rudder over and give a momentary blast in forward gear to correct any tendency for the stern to go in the wrong direction.

 

[claymore]

My old boat was sort of a long-keeler, a Hallberg-Rassy 352. I didn't have a bow thruster. After a lot of practise, I could go astern under a reasonable amount of control in most circumstances. It's vital to try different techniques. One thing I found useful was to put the rudder over and give a momentary blast in forward gear to correct any tendency for the stern to go in the wrong direction.

Never seen a Hallberg with a long keel....

 

[doug748]

The Monsun 31, I think. Doubt they go backwards very well

 

[BabaYaga]

Never seen a Hallberg with a long keel....

Or the Rasmus 35.

 

[pvb]

Never seen a Hallberg with a long keel....

Well, fairly long...

 

[Twister_Ken]

Tom was on my old boat. We did have fun that day!

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

yup got one and it behaves just like the boats below

One other thing momentum... if you get the bow swinging too fast as you go astern its very difficult to stop as it pivots around a point very near the stern so go astern slowly. I tend to use the technique noted below in straightening her up with a burst against the rudder.

This momentum can useful when you have wind on your bow in the berth. I had a port hand berth and used to pull back slowly till clear (sometimes dragging a line doubled round a pontoon cleat to hold her bow up) then use the prop and some speed to turn the boat 180 degrees until my stern was up against adjacent boats a few bays along. The momentum kept the bow swinging beyond the 180 point and you should then be able to turn to go outwards using bursts against the rudder hard to starboard.

A sort of boy racer J turn in a boat! You learn with practice and gods knows I've been the side show in a marina many times!

 

[westernman]

I always berth stern to. I find it tricky when coming back from the restaurant late evenings to climb onto the boat via the bow sprit!



The rudder has minimal effect in reverse. The direction of motion in reverse is determined by the angular momentum, wind, prop walk, the phase of the moon, the day of the week, and many other factors which I have not yet understood.

 

[seaangler23]

I've given up for the moment as no matter what I do it goes its own way, a 10t motorsailer with wide beam, plenty of windage and no noticable prop walk, it also decides itself if and when it will engage forward so I won't be going near a marina till the box is rebuilt, even then il have someone in the dingy as a thruster/fender

 

[Spuddy]

I'm a lapsed member of the long keel fraternity. When comparing notes with friends we found that each boat behaved differently : Folkboat, Liz 33, Vega and Folkdancer. Each one was only predictable in its unpredictability. I relied sometimes on warping the boat about. Thanks Vega owner fitted an electric outboard at the stern facing sideways, a sort of stern thruster; seemed to work ok up to a point