Assistance for inverted sailing dinghy

[chriss999]

I did not offer more physical assistance because I thought speedboat was better able to, being smaller and more manouevrerable. I was also aware that I did not know the build of the dinghy, its strong points etc.

For what it’s worth, I think you did just the right thing. The worst would have been to go charging in. You were on hand if needed.

 

[Greenheart]

I'll second that. :encouragement:

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Lasers actually lay quite low in the water when capsized with the rig almost flat to the surface. The more challenging boats are more modern asymmetric dinghies where the buoyancy is predominantly in the sides of the hull due to having open transoms and fixed poles and chutes. They float very high in the water with the heel of the mast well above the water which causes two issues; the lighter ones blow away quickly downwind and they invert very easily. There have been a couple of tragic losses of crew caught under inverted asymmetric dinghies. The one that springs to mind was at the Laser 4000 Nationals at Abersoch I believe. My first thought when seeing an inverted dinghy is if there is still another person trapped underneath.

The Osprey used to be like this (don't know if it still is - this was nearly 50 years ago) - floated very high out of water which always made it feel as if she was going to go inverted. Having two crew meant we could normally use me (as the heavier guy) hauling on the centreboard whilst helm would grab the boat as she came upright as long as the mast wasn't well underwater.. We did manage to get her completely inverted a couple of times and there was no way we could have get her up and going again without the rescue boats help - we did manage to get the boat back up from inverted but she went straight over the over way every time. That may have been out cack-handedness of course. We would have lover to have reduced the buoyancy a bit but class rules and the fact that it was beautifully moulded wooden side decks meant that we couldn't.

 

[Greenheart]

It occurs to me that from the swimmer's position, the Osprey's slippery inverted hull might be a very hard thing to climb on to.

The Osprey...nearly 50 years ago - We did manage to get her completely inverted a couple of times and there was no way we could have [got] her up and going again without the rescue boat's help

Thanks Grumpy. I believe I'll stick to avoiding inversion, rather than treating it as a huge challenge I must learn to deal with. :encouragement:

 

[chrishscorp]

Difficult to advise the yachtsman how he may assist in this situation. The first thing to remember is probably to stand clear - because a dinghy's many longish control lines create a big noodle-soup to snag the helper's propellor.

Worth noting that if, at length, the crew of a dinghy seem unable to right a capsized boat, their states of mind and physical condition begin to put them in serious peril, so the bystander in a yacht or RIB ought to stay on hand until the situation really is sorted, rather than assuming there's no problem because the crew waves cheerfully or dismissively.

I've seen previously capable dinghy crews gradually defeated by cold and by confusion as a result of the failure of the procedures they regard as the solution. It's also often the case that having righted the boat, a weakened crew quickly suffers further capsizes, from which they are decreasingly able to recover.

I wonder if there's any sense in the case of a heavy dinghy like mine, in keeping a light strong line tied above the hounds, with the other end (plus a few extra yards) snapshackled to the deck ahead of the forestay. In the event of inversion, the crew disconnects the snapshackle and thereby has a line to offer his rescuer - who can power slowly sideways to bring the masthead to the surface.

.

I regularly did rescue boat duty at my club as helm on one of the ribs for some 12 years, the main issue is when they struggle again and again to right it and then capsize again shortly after, at that point your going to be towing them in. Always wise to check how many should be in the water, keep your prop in neutral if they are near the boat (yes it should be obvious)

I use to sail a Scorpion quite tippy, so we always use to tie an old mainsheet around the base of the mast when we went out, that could then be thrown over the high side, step on the centreboard rope in hand and off you go, quick and easy.

 

[Triassic]

As a kid I used to do a lot of sailing in first Hobie 14's, and then later the 16. We had an old self inflating lifejacket taped to the top of the mast. With the straps removed it's surprising slim and unobtrusive, especially when well gaffa taped down, but it was all that was needed to prevent you going completely turtle, even on the bigger boat. I wonder if anyone has patented the idea......?

 

[ShinyShoe]

As a kid I used to do a lot of sailing in first Hobie 14's, and then later the 16. We had an old self inflating lifejacket taped to the top of the mast. With the straps removed it's surprising slim and unobtrusive, especially when well gaffa taped down, but it was all that was needed to prevent you going completely turtle, even on the bigger boat. I wonder if anyone has patented the idea......?

Afraid so...

https://www.tridentuk.com/gb/boats-...er-anti-capsize-cushions-and-mast-floats.html

40 litre so 400N!

Pricey, and not cheap to refill... Never knowingly seen one in the wild! If same sailors were both wearing auto LJs that makes a capsize cost quite a bit. On a wayfarer - perhaps quite reasonable - as cruising wayfarers do everything possible to avoid capsize.

On an open backed boat - sounds more like a racing design and so capsize increases in likelihood...

Some of the small kids dinghies with a hollow mast and no halyards inside - do well having some closed cell foam stuck inside the top of the mast. Probably only adds <2 litres of buoyancy... but on the end of a lever. Doesn't stop them ever inverting - but certainly makes it harder and I get the feel that once you start bringing it up it gives a little helping hand too. As its inside the mast it doesn't affect airflow.

 

[Iain C]

Lots of people tend to be too impatient after an inversion. Jumping around and pulling on lines...quite often the boat is coming up...slowly...so just conserve energy, use your weight, and keep your eyes open and see if she is coming up. It may well take a minute or two...be patient.

The other classic mistake is not letting the mainsheet and kicker right off...that will really slow things down!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Pricey, and not cheap to refill... Never knowingly seen one in the wild! If same sailors were both wearing auto LJs that makes a capsize cost quite a bit. On a wayfarer - perhaps quite reasonable - as cruising wayfarers do everything possible to avoid capsize.

Hmm. I'm wondering about this for my Drascombe. People die when they go over ...

 

[Greenheart]

I wonder if anyone has patented the [self-inflating] idea......?

It sounds to me like a great idea for boats which are a real challenge to right...

...but given that most dinghies are expected to capsize regularly without causing the crew undue difficulty, and will routinely dip their mastheads even if they don't invert, self-inflation might be seen as a kneejerk response for most people's use.

Even though I strive determinedly not to capsize, (in fact I'm definitely in the cruising-Wayfarer-category ShineyShoe mentions above), I'm not sure I'd want the masthead float popping full of air if I am knocked down for a few minutes one exciting day...I can't pretend that it won't ever happen, even if it's not every month (or every year).

I believe the Rooster float will reduce the immediacy of an inversion, and provide buoyancy as the mast comes up. That'll do for me at the moment. Thanks for the reminder that it's not really big enough though...I might use it in tandem with a screenwash bottle. :encouragement:

 

[lw395]

Lots of people tend to be too impatient after an inversion. Jumping around and pulling on lines...quite often the boat is coming up...slowly...so just conserve energy, use your weight, and keep your eyes open and see if she is coming up. It may well take a minute or two...be patient.

The other classic mistake is not letting the mainsheet and kicker right off...that will really slow things down!

Very true!
Sometimes as you fall out at speed, you take mainsheet with you and it ends up cleated.
Being patient for 'minute or two' mid race isn't my style though!

 

[Greenheart]

Sometimes as you fall out at speed, you take mainsheet with you and it ends up cleated.

I think my mainsheet was still cleated when the toestraps broke and I fell backward out of the Osprey and she went over, two years ago.

I felt that in the calm conditions, the sail's resistance to the water prevented her rig sliding quickly under. If I'd taken care to free the sheet, p'raps she'd have inverted.

 

[Iain C]

Very true!
Sometimes as you fall out at speed, you take mainsheet with you and it ends up cleated.
Being patient for 'minute or two' mid race isn't my style though!

Very true! It's pretty much game over if you take a swim. However most of my capsizing is on a fairly elderley 49er, and there's no hurrying one of those upright from an inversion...huge fully battened main, plus the wings/racks which obviously don't like to be pushed sideways in water, and a short daggerboard for the size of boat. Not forgetting how long it takes to put the kite away!!

 

[lw395]

I think my mainsheet was still cleated when the toestraps broke and I fell backward out of the Osprey and she went over, two years ago.

I felt that in the calm conditions, the sail's resistance to the water prevented her rig sliding quickly under. If I'd taken care to free the sheet, p'raps she'd have inverted.

I think a cleated main works far better against righting than it does against inversion for many designs. If the boat is on its side with the mast at an angle to the water, the masthead goes down and the main just moves the boat sideways a little as the masthead sinks. Once it's upside down, to right it you have to move the sail bodily sideways through the water. That will happen slowly, but wave action might send it back down a lot quicker.
If the main lies flat on the water it might help a lot more. On a boat like a Merlin, there's often initially a lot of air trapped under the main with the mast mostly at the surface of the water, so they are slow to turtle.
But these days most of my capsizing seems to be of the high speed 'gybe-sploosh' variety in waves, where anything could happen. And sometimes does.

Once you are lifting the mast out of the water, you will want the sheets uncleated.

 

[Triassic]

It sounds to me like a great idea for boats which are a real challenge to right...

...but given that most dinghies are expected to capsize regularly without causing the crew undue difficulty, and will routinely dip their mastheads even if they don't invert, self-inflation might be seen as a kneejerk response for most people's use.

This is indeed true, we did tend to try and avoid flipping the cats on a daily basis! How about using a manual inflation one with an extended pull cord coming out of the mast around the gooseneck area. That way in the event of a complete roll over you could reach under and pull it giving the mast at least some encouragement to get it started on it's way back up?

 

[SimonFa]

I've managed to get our 14ft RS Vareo inverted twice in 12 years.
It happened because I was too slow doing a conventional righting procedure.
It is difficult to right from inverted , and would be nearly impossible if the daggerboard were to slip inside/under the hull.
With the daggerboard pulled up from the hull and as upright as possible and leaning right back for max leverage , you can get back to horizontal mast in water (normal post normal capsize) . With care you can continue to right the boat and climb in as she comes upright. In both capsizes with inversion I was stuck with my own resources... neither location was all that scary or isolated. In cold water it gets pretty tiring.

If you see that happen offer them a paddle/oar from your tender*, they should be able to get back to normal capsize position and push the dagger board back in, assuming it was tethered to the boat and hasn't sunk

*Oops, missed a bit - so they can stick it in the dagger board slot and use it as they would the dagger board

Worth noting that if, at length, the crew of a dinghy seem unable to right a capsized boat, their states of mind and physical condition begin to put them in serious peril, so the bystander in a yacht or RIB ought to stay on hand until the situation really is sorted, rather than assuming there's no problem because the crew waves cheerfully or dismissively.

I've seen previously capable dinghy crews gradually defeated by cold and by confusion as a result of the failure of the procedures they regard as the solution. It's also often the case that having righted the boat, a weakened crew quickly suffers further capsizes, from which they are decreasingly able to recover.

I was on the safety boats during the recent RS 25th Anniversary Games at WPNSA. This particular event was a double hander with trapeze. They'd been out in the bay, a long way to the East, and after a long day they had a very long beat back. We'd been keeping a very close eye on a foreign crew who were back markers and had spent a lot of time in the water. They capsized just outside the North entrance and kept refusing help. After a number of attempts they managed to get the boat righted and both crew back in.

It should have been relatively easy after they got in to the harbour as it was close hauled all the way back, but as they were tired they didn't make it and had to put a tack in about 100m out from the marina entrance. We went in close and offered help, including showing the a towing line. They declined again and seemed quite alert, so we stood off but very close. On one of them attempts the boat inverted and one of the crew got stuck underneath. We went straight and managed to get the boat back to normal capsize position quickly, and the other crew dragged his mate out. However he had gone in to shock and the situation was very bad.

To add to the problems the casualty had the trapeze wrapped round his wrist and tangled. Fortunately I carry a leather-man and quickly go the pliers to the crew who cut the casualty free. With that the other safety boat stepped on and got the casualty out, why we held the casualties boat clear, and eventually to hospital where he was treated for hypothermia.

The lessons are all something we know but its always difficult in the heat of the moment:

1. We should have insisted that they take our help and a tow, but how to make them? These were adults so we gave them more respect than we probably should have done, it was a World Championship after all. From my experience kids would have willingly accepted our help but we'd have over ruled them anyway.

2. Its amazing how quickly someone can go from being alert to suffering shock/hypothermia even in relatively warm August waters. There was no evidence of hypothermia before the last inversion, indeed the casualty had been quite agile, although he was slowing down.

Lasers actually lay quite low in the water when capsized with the rig almost flat to the surface. The more challenging boats are more modern asymmetric dinghies where the buoyancy is predominantly in the sides of the hull due to having open transoms and fixed poles and chutes. They float very high in the water with the heel of the mast well above the water which causes two issues; the lighter ones blow away quickly downwind and they invert very easily. There have been a couple of tragic losses of crew caught under inverted asymmetric dinghies. The one that springs to mind was at the Laser 4000 Nationals at Abersoch I believe. My first thought when seeing an inverted dinghy is if there is still another person trapped underneath.

I was staying with a m,ate and was sailing my Laser at Nefyn Sailing club when that happened. When word got out my mate and I went straight out and bought safety knives to keep in our buoyancy aids. Even though I've stopped sailing dinghies and sold the Laser, the safety knife is still in my buoyancy aid.

 

[Puffin10032]

1. We should have insisted that they take our help and a tow, but how to make them? These were adults so we gave them more respect than we probably should have done, it was a World Championship after all. From my experience kids would have willingly accepted our help but we'd have over ruled them anyway.

You did the best anyone could have given the circumstances. And you were there when things got really bad so I think you deserve some congratulations :applause:

2. Its amazing how quickly someone can go from being alert to suffering shock/hypothermia even in relatively warm August waters. There was no evidence of hypothermia before the last inversion, indeed the casualty had been quite agile, although he was slowing down.

Was he wearing a wetsuit or drysuit? I'm assuming not as I can't see how hypothermia would have kicked in so quickly if he had been.

 

[SimonFa]

You did the best anyone could have given the circumstances. And you were there when things got really bad so I think you deserve some congratulations :applause:

Was he wearing a wetsuit or drysuit? I'm assuming not as I can't see how hypothermia would have kicked in so quickly if he had been.

Thanks. He was wearing a wetsuit. I called it in as shock - listless, vacant eyes, looking confused and I didn't see any signs of the common signs of hypothermia such as blue lips. I was told later the First Responders called it as hypothermia, which I suppose could have set in before they got to him.

Which reminds me that I need to update first aid as its more than 3 years since I last did the course.

 

[ShinyShoe]

Thanks. He was wearing a wetsuit. I called it in as shock - listless, vacant eyes, looking confused and I didn't see any signs of the common signs of hypothermia such as blue lips. I was told later the First Responders called it as hypothermia, which I suppose could have set in before they got to him.

Signs of hypothermia...

Shivering
Slurred speech or mumbling
Slow, shallow breathing
Slow & weak pulse
Clumsiness or lack of coordination
Drowsiness or very low energy
Confusion or memory loss
Loss of consciousness
Bright red, cold skin (in infants)

--

I'd never have cyanosis high on my list of hypothermia signs, after shivering, confusion, less pronounced and un-co-ordinated movement are the three obvious symptoms. Then getting an obs rate with a weak pulse and low resp rate will be helpful to confirm. Cyanosis may be present in hypothermia - but skin colour will often be whiter rather than blue as the capillaries shutdown so there isn't even de-oxygenated blood...

"Shock" as a symptom of fear is a rather meaningless diagnosis to be honest - much preferred by the Daily Mail. Shock as a clinical symptom of another condition - hypovolaemia (blood loss) or anaphylaxis is a different story. Tachycardia (fast pulse) with low blood pressure (weak thready pulse that is difficult to feel) and RAPID shallow breathing are the three principle symptoms. Note that is different from hypothermia where pulse and breathing are SLOW and WEAK.

 

[Greenheart]

When I awoke yesterday it looked a little breezy for easy sailing, but my mate was keen, so off we went, although I insisted we took a deep reef. In the event, even he was glad we had reduced sail. With the full mainsail up, I'm certain we'd have gone for a swim.

Of course, a bare mast with the mainsail only two-thirds the way to the top of it, has significantly less resistance to a rapid inversion...so despite reducing the likelihood of a knock-down, I had increased the risk of inversion, if capsize were to occur.

I'm thankful to say it did not. Last night, I read that my vintage of Osprey is particularly awkward to right from inversion, and despite my experience, apparently her buoyant side-tanks make her more inclined to go all the way over. So after a great day of restrained sailing in boisterous conditions, I'm more than ever convinced that the masthead float is my best bet for minimum trouble.

The ineradicable stigma associated with such a visible precaution, doesn't suit racers' egos and may not be prudent in high winds where a capsized boat can drift faster than swimming speed. But for casual weekend-racers in moderate conditions, I'm surprised if such a simple, cheap addition (which would also put them back in the race more quickly) isn't used.

Combined with their bold (incomprehensible ) readiness to launch on freezing low-season days, it may prevent near-tragedies too.

Of course, top racers will have the technique to cope with inversion swiftly, perhaps without even preventing their placing. But I'm thinking of the thousands of dinghy-sailors like me, who are neither young nor fit, nor well-practiced in recovering from capsize...

...most of them still seem more daunted by taunting, than by hypothermia or drowning.