Koeketiene
Well-known member
Yes, I have (twice).
Ignorant comments are also sufficient grounds for ending the negotiations.
Asking price V Selling price.
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- Start date
Yes, I have (twice).
Ignorant comments are also sufficient grounds for ending the negotiations.
jonic
Well-known member
Nearly all our boats sell within 5% of the asking price, sometimes they sell at asking price.
For example this month one of our Beneteaus has just had an offer accepted at 4% of asking price and the other has accepted asking price less survey and lift costs.
I absolutely have had clients refuse to do business with people who start with unjustifiably low offers.
Yacht sales require an enormous amount of goodwill which some buyers destroy for themselves as soon as they put in their first insulting offer.
A surveyor remarked to me recently how often he sees people end up with the wrong or substandard boat because they lost the plot and had to get a certain % off the asking price. So they miss out on the good boat and buy the rough one because of their negotiating skills.
If the boat is fairly priced and a good boat then buy it before someone else does.
For example this month one of our Beneteaus has just had an offer accepted at 4% of asking price and the other has accepted asking price less survey and lift costs.
I absolutely have had clients refuse to do business with people who start with unjustifiably low offers.
Yacht sales require an enormous amount of goodwill which some buyers destroy for themselves as soon as they put in their first insulting offer.
A surveyor remarked to me recently how often he sees people end up with the wrong or substandard boat because they lost the plot and had to get a certain % off the asking price. So they miss out on the good boat and buy the rough one because of their negotiating skills.
If the boat is fairly priced and a good boat then buy it before someone else does.
jonic
Well-known member
I have ended viewings based on rude and ignorant comments, because in my experience (long and painful) it will only ever go downhill from there.
saltylegs
Active member
Long story, but I offered 15% below asking price subject to survey which was accepted, then after a bad survey (but nothing that I didn't expect) I was offered the boat with almost 70% knocked off the asking price, right place right time (for a change).
FergusM
New member
On the verbal contract issue, I was brought up to take the same view as AntarcticPilot, that a gentleman's word is his bond. I am Scots, and the law on house purchase is different from English law. As I understand it, in Scotland an offer on a house is binding, and, once you have made it, you can be held to it. When the vendor accepts the offer, he can be held to that. When I lived in England some years ago, I was selling a house in a buoyant market, and accepted what I regarded as a very attractive offer made by a prospective purchaser. The estate agent had phoned us with the offer, and I called back and accepted it, after discussing it with my wife. Shortly afterwards, before the deal had been finalised on paper. the estate agent called me again, and said she had just received an offer several thousand pounds above the one I had accepted. I had heard about 'gazumping', but this was my first experience of it. I explained that I had already accepted the previous offer, and regarded the house as no longer on the market. I asked her to respond in those terms. She sounded surprised, so I told her that it was a matter of me having given my word, and that was not negotiable.
On boat prices, several thoughts come to mind. The first is that too many boat owners in the UK have greatly inflated ideas of what their boats are worth. This is particularly striking if one has lived abroad, as I have. Even if it is true that a very well equipped "Mudthumper 32" in excellent condition had sold for £45,000, that does that mean that their decrepit, filthy example, fifteen years older and with sails setting like granny's bloomers, should fetch the same. Or, to consider a less extreme but perhaps more common situation, a boat in average condition, with dull brightwork and five-year old electronics, looking a bit cluttered and untidy with personal gear scattered below, is hardly likely to sell quickly or at top dollar.
Although boats do not carry the same expectations of appreciating in value as houses have done for much of the period since 1945, they still represent a substantial outlay for most people, and owners are unwilling to accept at first that an economic downturn has altered the dynamics of the market, so their pride and joy is no longer likely to attract the price they had mentally placed on her (or even paid, if that is fairly recent) just a little while before. We are so many years into the downturn now that there is really no excuse for vendors not taking a realistic look at the state of the market, and pricing their boats accordingly.
They should also clear out all personal kit, clean and tidy the boat thoroughly, touch up brightwork and do any of the small maintenance tasks (such as whipping rope ends), which show that a yacht has been properly cared for by a seaman. A real problem here is that many people, once they have decided to buy a new vessel, and even more so if they have already bought a new one, mentally consign their current boat to the dustbin of history, and begrudge any time and money spent on her. This becomes especially evident if the boat is on the market for some time, and is lying in some broker's premises or behind the clubhouse, collecting dirt and autumn leaves, with varnish peeling from tiller and washboards. It also often puts them in the unfortunate position of having a mental price floor for the money they have to realise to finance their new acquisition.
When I have looked at a boat and decided she is substantially overpriced, I have either said that to the vendor, and left it up to him whether he asks for an offer, or else I have thanked him for showing me the boat and gone on my way. This latter approach is one I take if I form the impression that he is the kind of person who would not be out of place as a dealer in second-hand cars. Those, and their distasteful attitude to haggling, I prefer to avoid.
I always make an offer subject to survey, and at what I consider a reasonable sort of price for that boat, with a mental note of how high I am actually prepared to go, if the owner asks for a bit more. As far as I am concerned, that represents my word, and is binding. If that offer is rejected, the offer lapses, in accordance with contract law. If it is accepted, what happens next depends on the survey. If the survey shows only minor items, I will discuss them with the vendor if I feel it is necessary, and the purchase will go through. With more serious problems, I have either mentioned them to the vendor and come to an arrangement to adjust the price to cover the cost of rectifying them, or told him what the survey found and said that, in view of the problems mentioned, I did not feel that I wished to proceed. On one occasion, I had viewed and test-sailed a wooden cutter, in the owner's presence, and made an offer subject to survey. The surveyor found a large slab of dry rot fungus in an obscure part of the bilges, so I rang the owner, feeling very upset that I had to break such bad news to him, and he answered that he already knew about it! I was disgusted at encountering such dishonourable and dishonest behaviour on the part of a fellow-yachtsman, and I did not mince my words. I was particularly angry that he had knowingly allowed me to arrange a survey, and that I had to pay the surveyor. There was no point in demanding the price of the survey - I would have had to take him to court for it. Life is too short for that kind of nonsense.
As with most things in life, the application of common sense and decency all round makes all the difference to the success of a boat sale and purchase. The absence of either is a certain recipe for unhappiness.
On boat prices, several thoughts come to mind. The first is that too many boat owners in the UK have greatly inflated ideas of what their boats are worth. This is particularly striking if one has lived abroad, as I have. Even if it is true that a very well equipped "Mudthumper 32" in excellent condition had sold for £45,000, that does that mean that their decrepit, filthy example, fifteen years older and with sails setting like granny's bloomers, should fetch the same. Or, to consider a less extreme but perhaps more common situation, a boat in average condition, with dull brightwork and five-year old electronics, looking a bit cluttered and untidy with personal gear scattered below, is hardly likely to sell quickly or at top dollar.
Although boats do not carry the same expectations of appreciating in value as houses have done for much of the period since 1945, they still represent a substantial outlay for most people, and owners are unwilling to accept at first that an economic downturn has altered the dynamics of the market, so their pride and joy is no longer likely to attract the price they had mentally placed on her (or even paid, if that is fairly recent) just a little while before. We are so many years into the downturn now that there is really no excuse for vendors not taking a realistic look at the state of the market, and pricing their boats accordingly.
They should also clear out all personal kit, clean and tidy the boat thoroughly, touch up brightwork and do any of the small maintenance tasks (such as whipping rope ends), which show that a yacht has been properly cared for by a seaman. A real problem here is that many people, once they have decided to buy a new vessel, and even more so if they have already bought a new one, mentally consign their current boat to the dustbin of history, and begrudge any time and money spent on her. This becomes especially evident if the boat is on the market for some time, and is lying in some broker's premises or behind the clubhouse, collecting dirt and autumn leaves, with varnish peeling from tiller and washboards. It also often puts them in the unfortunate position of having a mental price floor for the money they have to realise to finance their new acquisition.
When I have looked at a boat and decided she is substantially overpriced, I have either said that to the vendor, and left it up to him whether he asks for an offer, or else I have thanked him for showing me the boat and gone on my way. This latter approach is one I take if I form the impression that he is the kind of person who would not be out of place as a dealer in second-hand cars. Those, and their distasteful attitude to haggling, I prefer to avoid.
I always make an offer subject to survey, and at what I consider a reasonable sort of price for that boat, with a mental note of how high I am actually prepared to go, if the owner asks for a bit more. As far as I am concerned, that represents my word, and is binding. If that offer is rejected, the offer lapses, in accordance with contract law. If it is accepted, what happens next depends on the survey. If the survey shows only minor items, I will discuss them with the vendor if I feel it is necessary, and the purchase will go through. With more serious problems, I have either mentioned them to the vendor and come to an arrangement to adjust the price to cover the cost of rectifying them, or told him what the survey found and said that, in view of the problems mentioned, I did not feel that I wished to proceed. On one occasion, I had viewed and test-sailed a wooden cutter, in the owner's presence, and made an offer subject to survey. The surveyor found a large slab of dry rot fungus in an obscure part of the bilges, so I rang the owner, feeling very upset that I had to break such bad news to him, and he answered that he already knew about it! I was disgusted at encountering such dishonourable and dishonest behaviour on the part of a fellow-yachtsman, and I did not mince my words. I was particularly angry that he had knowingly allowed me to arrange a survey, and that I had to pay the surveyor. There was no point in demanding the price of the survey - I would have had to take him to court for it. Life is too short for that kind of nonsense.
As with most things in life, the application of common sense and decency all round makes all the difference to the success of a boat sale and purchase. The absence of either is a certain recipe for unhappiness.
Clarky
New member
Jonic - Nearly all our boats sell within 5% of the asking price, sometimes they sell at asking price.
If that is the case, why are so many reduced on your website?
I think it is just as rude to ask ridiculous prices for boats, no need to make low offers, just wait till they are reduced, to just make a low offer, who cares if the buyer is offended, there's thousands more out there.
If that is the case, why are so many reduced on your website?
I think it is just as rude to ask ridiculous prices for boats, no need to make low offers, just wait till they are reduced, to just make a low offer, who cares if the buyer is offended, there's thousands more out there.
jonic
Well-known member
I once had a client look round a boat that was on at £130k.
He clearly loved her but I could see he was nervous about the negotiation that was about to begin
He said if you were a betting man what do you think he'll accept?
I said I'd be pretty confident at 135.
It broke the ice and the deal went through with everyone happy.
He clearly loved her but I could see he was nervous about the negotiation that was about to begin
He said if you were a betting man what do you think he'll accept?
I said I'd be pretty confident at 135.
It broke the ice and the deal went through with everyone happy.
Donheist
Active member
Other than, for example, a raised eyebrow returned by a nod, aren't all contracts verbal, i.e. word based? The distinction discussed is oral rather than written.
If this is tedious pedantry, apologies, it's a result of spending all day correcting my team's language precision, and I can't snap out of it. If I see another "quite unique" or misuse of the adverb hopefully....
If this is tedious pedantry, apologies, it's a result of spending all day correcting my team's language precision, and I can't snap out of it. If I see another "quite unique" or misuse of the adverb hopefully....
jonic
Well-known member
Eh?
banger
Member
Interesting, I put an offer on a boat this year, 30% less that the inflated asking price, broker refused to pass it on and ignored me from there on, eventually the owner removed the boat from the broker, it appeared on various sites and ebay and sold for, 40% less. I will always offer what the boat, or any other major purchase, what the item is worth to me regardless of the vendors opinions.
ffiill
Active member
As someone who currently has a boat up for sale its dependant upon whether your asking price reflects the boats value combined with how urgent the need to sell is.
My 30 year old boat peaked in a 1994 sale at over £34,000 and one of the marque recently having been brought up to as new sold for nearly £45,000.New it sold for £26,000 in 1978.
My boat is reasonably clean and in good sailing condition and therefore my price reflects this although considerably lower than the 1994 price.I am not desperate to sell and therefore expect to be offered close to my asking price bearing in mind othersof the same marque are advertised around the £35,000 mark.
Personally I certainly would not reduce my price on the basis of someone elses survey .
Only recently I had a prospective purchaser moaning on about how the boat would need a new engine(knock this off the price) whereas as a mechanic I know that the engine is in very good running order- a bit like the prospective house purchaser who doesnt like your bathroom and expects a price reduction because of this.
If someone is knocking 40% off the asking price then they must have set a far too optimistic price in the first place and I do know that brokers can do this.My boat initially was set at what I considered to be too higher price by the broker it only reducing to a more appropriate level after some months.
My 30 year old boat peaked in a 1994 sale at over £34,000 and one of the marque recently having been brought up to as new sold for nearly £45,000.New it sold for £26,000 in 1978.
My boat is reasonably clean and in good sailing condition and therefore my price reflects this although considerably lower than the 1994 price.I am not desperate to sell and therefore expect to be offered close to my asking price bearing in mind othersof the same marque are advertised around the £35,000 mark.
Personally I certainly would not reduce my price on the basis of someone elses survey .
Only recently I had a prospective purchaser moaning on about how the boat would need a new engine(knock this off the price) whereas as a mechanic I know that the engine is in very good running order- a bit like the prospective house purchaser who doesnt like your bathroom and expects a price reduction because of this.
If someone is knocking 40% off the asking price then they must have set a far too optimistic price in the first place and I do know that brokers can do this.My boat initially was set at what I considered to be too higher price by the broker it only reducing to a more appropriate level after some months.
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jonic
Well-known member
Indeed some brokers (not many) will suggest a flattering price just to secure the listing. This is a total waste of time and a quick search of yachtworld will show if you are being overly courted. But bear in mind prices will vary depending on condition, usage and addition of new engines or sails and rigs.
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Missing f here?
So has anyone had a pre survey offer of more than 10% off accepted on a brokerage boat? I assume that most brokers will only market boats at realistic prices.
sighmoon
Active member
Yes - I had £33k accepted on a boat listed at £40k. I didn't buy it though, the surveyor found £25k of essential work.
Lakesailor
New member
I refused a ridiculous offer on a small fishing boat (a With) from a bloke who pitched up ostensibly to look at before bidding on ebay.
He offered about £100 "cash, now, it's here in my pocket"
I would normally have said that I would let the auction run it's course, but he was such a clever sod (obviously hoping to take the profit for himself, on ebay) that I told him not to be so silly and that I would block him from bidding on it as well.
It sold for about £370
sighmoon
Active member
That would put me off offering on your boat (which is no loss to you - I'm not in the market).
The asking price is for a sound boat; if the survey reveals otherwise, it's surely not worth as much.
jwilson
Well-known member
The broker should ALWAYS pass on offers, no matter what they are, possibly unless they involve the part-exchange of camels and the buyer's uglier daughter. And usually brokers (including me) are keen to set a realistic asking price, but sometimes owners set the bar a bit high.
doug748
Well-known member
"Personally I certainly would not reduce my price on the basis of someone elses survey ."
Nor would I.
Houses, boats I am pretty flexible on price, I don't even mind giving someone a bargain. Much better to lose a few grand and gain a quick, clean sale.
However, if I had taken a low offer that would be it. I am all for making it clear that there would be no further reductions, and let the prospective buyer drop out if they feel they have a bad survey.
Nor would I.
Houses, boats I am pretty flexible on price, I don't even mind giving someone a bargain. Much better to lose a few grand and gain a quick, clean sale.
However, if I had taken a low offer that would be it. I am all for making it clear that there would be no further reductions, and let the prospective buyer drop out if they feel they have a bad survey.
Sybarite
Well-known member
I have been following the prices of some boats over a period of time and I have seen up to 50% reductions as regards both a class of boats and certain specific ones.
Some professionals told me that no offer today is considered ridiculous.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Just for interest would that include clients that said they only wanted offers around a certain band, for example? I would want to know all offers made to the Broker but I can imagine a scenario where I may instruct a Broker to only advise me of offers within my range.