Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
Would you consider a furling system for it instead? Possibly a bit more expensive in parts but a lot easier to manage I'd have thought.
Are snuffers the work of the devil?
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Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Umm...I'd probably consider it if I knew what it was.
The sail in question is symmetric, so the kind of elaborated genoa-furler which I think I've seen used for rolling away a cruising chute, probably wouldn't work.
Although, it occurred to me that a short, insubstantial bowsprit, purely on which to rig the snuffer-downhaul, might help steer the snuffer in the direction I'd want it to go to swallow the sail...better than pulling it down and back towards the rear of the cockpit anyway.
What sort of furling system were you thinking of, Woodlouse?
The sail in question is symmetric, so the kind of elaborated genoa-furler which I think I've seen used for rolling away a cruising chute, probably wouldn't work.
Although, it occurred to me that a short, insubstantial bowsprit, purely on which to rig the snuffer-downhaul, might help steer the snuffer in the direction I'd want it to go to swallow the sail...better than pulling it down and back towards the rear of the cockpit anyway.
What sort of furling system were you thinking of, Woodlouse?
Heckler
Well-Known Member
A big plus one! Swmbo loves it"
Stu
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
If you go for a snuffer you have to design a mouth piece that stays open as it comes down. Going up is not a problem. As for cloth size it needs to be thin enough to allow it to scrunch up at the top of the sail as much as possible to allow the head of the sail to open. You also need to factor in a swivel so that when you hoist the sail in the snuffer any twist comes out. The cloth has to be water resistant as it will stick to the sail when wet & create friction
The alternative is to think laterally & do it like cats& asymetric boats etc do it. They put the snuffer along the deck & pull the sail into a pre extended snuffer or chute. It takes a single line from the centre of the sail down through the chute. The spinnaker can be dropped in 2-3 seconds as the down haul is attached to the halyard. As the halyard is released it pulls in the down haul. Having 2 poles they can be on a fly out system& be permanently fitted to the sheet so you just release a line to pull it in or reverse to pull out
With the snuffer you propose you will still need to have a system of gathering in the snuffed spinnaker & finding how to stow it. Why not just stow it in a chute ready for re launch in a few seconds.
If single handers like international canoes get an asymetric sai up in seconds whilst out on a seat then you should be able to get a spinnaker up( or down) in a similar way from a stable platform like an osprey
The alternative is to think laterally & do it like cats& asymetric boats etc do it. They put the snuffer along the deck & pull the sail into a pre extended snuffer or chute. It takes a single line from the centre of the sail down through the chute. The spinnaker can be dropped in 2-3 seconds as the down haul is attached to the halyard. As the halyard is released it pulls in the down haul. Having 2 poles they can be on a fly out system& be permanently fitted to the sheet so you just release a line to pull it in or reverse to pull out
With the snuffer you propose you will still need to have a system of gathering in the snuffed spinnaker & finding how to stow it. Why not just stow it in a chute ready for re launch in a few seconds.
If single handers like international canoes get an asymetric sai up in seconds whilst out on a seat then you should be able to get a spinnaker up( or down) in a similar way from a stable platform like an osprey
Toutvabien
Well-Known Member
I thought that Osprey's have spinnaker chutes to facilitate launching and recovery, much better than any snuffer.
Shuggy
Well-Known Member
I've come a bit late to this thread, but I have come to the conclusion that snuffers are indeed the work of the devil. We have just binned ours. I thought it would make 2-up sailing easier, but after persevering for 6 seasons we've decided to do away with it. I'm not from a racing background so I've always thought that a conventional spinnaker hoist would be a nightmare without one but even this big 70s kite is easier without:
It's a bit of a handful to reach with...
But the snuffer makes it more of a handful, as you can see here. Good thing you can't hear my language at this point...
We sail either two up or as a young family, so we've been practising snuffer-less hoists, albeit with a slightly smaller kite:
I'd recommend this excellent video for seeing just how calm it should all be. We have a 'no shouting' rule on board, and this is good inspiration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvNEz7yB2GI&index=1&list=WL
It's a bit of a handful to reach with...
But the snuffer makes it more of a handful, as you can see here. Good thing you can't hear my language at this point...
We sail either two up or as a young family, so we've been practising snuffer-less hoists, albeit with a slightly smaller kite:
I'd recommend this excellent video for seeing just how calm it should all be. We have a 'no shouting' rule on board, and this is good inspiration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvNEz7yB2GI&index=1&list=WL
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Some have chutes, many do not. I fairly thoroughly covered the attraction, effectiveness, difficulty and probable cost of making and using a chute, in a lengthy thread in the last six months, during which one chap helpfully suggested, "why not just use a snuffer?". So, round and round I go.
I've also looked hard at asymmetric spinnakers, and tried to buy one from Exchange Sails, but that didn't work out, and I was relieved just to get my money back after a month.
I'd still like an asymmetric as another tool in the box, but I'm determined to get to grips with the standard spinnaker during agreeable weather when it's controllable for one unskilled man alone...the only question is how much trouble I can save myself, by selecting some extra kit.
I can see that in a light enough wind, nobody needs a snuffer; my problem will be when I'm trapezing under all sail in crowded waters and suddenly the wind increases.
At such times I need all my weight to keep the boat upright even without extra sail up; so, any rapid way to contain it, without needing me to drop everything, come in off the trap and fanny about getting the spinnaker down and into its bag, is appealing.
Mr Daydream, thanks for your helpful advice there. :encouragement: If I can finally persuade ANY of the other chaps who sail near me to bring their phones out with them this year, I'll be able to amuse contributors here, with photos of how not to hoist/drop my spinnaker.
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grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
Some have chutes, many do not. I fairly thoroughly covered the attraction, effectiveness, difficulty and probable cost of making and using a chute, in a lengthy thread in the last six months, during which one chap helpfully suggested, "why not just use a snuffer?". So, round and round I go.
I've also looked hard at asymmetric spinnakers, and tried to buy one from Exchange Sails, but that didn't work out, and I was relieved just to get my money back after a month.
I'd still like an asymmetric as another tool in the box, but I'm determined to get to grips with the standard spinnaker during agreeable weather when it's controllable for one unskilled man alone...the only question is how much trouble I can save myself, by selecting some extra kit.
I can see that in a light enough wind, nobody needs a snuffer; my problem will be when I'm trapezing under all sail in crowded waters and suddenly the wind increases.
At such times I need all my weight to keep the boat upright even without extra sail up; so, any rapid way to contain it, without needing me to drop everything, come in off the trap and fanny about getting the spinnaker down and into its bag, is appealing.
Mr Daydream, thanks for your helpful advice there. :encouragement: If I can finally persuade ANY of the other chaps who sail near me to bring their phones out with them this year, I'll be able to amuse contributors here, with photos of how not to hoist/drop my spinnaker.
I've used snuffers a few times on cruising yachts, with varying degrees of ease and success (from "that's brilliant!!" to "b*****S, s****ing useless ucking thing"). I've used a spinnaker chute on an Osprey hundreds of times and the chute is absolutely bloody brilliant every time. I don't think it ever caused a problem unless you tried to drag the spinnaker pole down it too. If you want to use a spinnaker on an Osprey fit a chute - don't even think about a snuffer.
The only reason larger boats don't use chutes is because they don't have the room (or possible because they have 20 spare crew with grazed knuckles in the case of the Maxi's, etc.)
A quick google find this guy http://www.theboatfixer.co.uk/aboutus.html who races a wooden Osprey and offers "
[h=4]"Boat upgrades e.g. retrospective fitting of spinnakers[/h] Does your boat need those extra go faster bits to improve its performance and competitiveness? We can put them on for you! Do you just want to make it easier to sail? We can advise on better control layouts. Just ask us what you need whether it be cleat replacement or spinnaker and chute installation - or anything else! Even if you are not sure what is needed - get in touch and we will be happy to advise. "
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
Larger boats do use chutes. Take TP52's for example. It allows them to do tricks like this...
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
But the snuffer makes it more of a handful, as you can see here. Good thing you can't hear my language at this point...
]
I agree snuffers are a menace but yours does look a little skinny
Do like your boat though !!!!!!
bedouin
Well-Known Member
Not all snuffers are created equal -and if you don't mind me saying so the design of yours looks a little suspect. A bit too thin and doesn't have a rigid mouth.
DJE
Well-Known Member
If you don't want to cut a hole in the foredeck for a chute then perhaps a catamaran style chute could be fitted above deck.
Or even just a big hoop on the bow the pull the spinaker down through as used on the Hawk 20.
Or even just a big hoop on the bow the pull the spinaker down through as used on the Hawk 20.
Shuggy
Well-Known Member
It probably is a little thin (unlike me). But it does have a rigid mouth - it's integrated into the design, but I suspect it would be better if it had a plastic 'scoop' type. But it's irrelevant now as it's been retired!
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Curious thing, I now begin to think I'll have a try at hoisting the spinn right out of the bag in a force 1.5, and see how pear-shaped (or not) it all goes.
If (by luck and by groping for the wholly unlearned technique required to do a two- or three-person task on my own) I can keep the dinghy more or less upright whilst un-hooking and re-bagging the billowing spinnaker (and continuing apace under main & genoa as I go), I'll feel so dashed salty, I'll immediately adopt contempt for short-cuts like chutes and snuffers.
I hope to have photographs of the attempt, be it victorious or disasterous.
If (by luck and by groping for the wholly unlearned technique required to do a two- or three-person task on my own) I can keep the dinghy more or less upright whilst un-hooking and re-bagging the billowing spinnaker (and continuing apace under main & genoa as I go), I'll feel so dashed salty, I'll immediately adopt contempt for short-cuts like chutes and snuffers.
I hope to have photographs of the attempt, be it victorious or disasterous.
Seajet
...
Dan,
I've probably mentioned to you I used to set the kite singlehanded on both my Scorpion and Osprey.
Not from the wire though, that would be asking a lot, may have gone out on the wire once set, probably did.
I remember capsizing at least the Scorpion this way ( accidental gybe ), which could have left me badly placed with a kite full of water and no crew weight - one has to lift the mast a little to let the sail stream and dump water from the released sheet.
I was OK in calm warmish water so just pulled the sail back down with the boat on its side, not so much fun if out of shelter but I'd think fine if you have masthead buoyancy.
Both boats had chutes but not snuffers.
I think you'll be fine as long as you pick your weather.
I've probably mentioned to you I used to set the kite singlehanded on both my Scorpion and Osprey.
Not from the wire though, that would be asking a lot, may have gone out on the wire once set, probably did.
I remember capsizing at least the Scorpion this way ( accidental gybe ), which could have left me badly placed with a kite full of water and no crew weight - one has to lift the mast a little to let the sail stream and dump water from the released sheet.
I was OK in calm warmish water so just pulled the sail back down with the boat on its side, not so much fun if out of shelter but I'd think fine if you have masthead buoyancy.
Both boats had chutes but not snuffers.
I think you'll be fine as long as you pick your weather.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Cheers Andy. Regarding weather, I'm Mr Cautious...hence my terribly slow but steady ascent of the learning curve. So not much chance of me attempting a three-sail reach in unsuitable weather.
I've read a fair number of dinghy sailors' accounts of singlehanding two-man boats under all sail, but very few accounts are substantiated by photographs, and I'd like to broaden the thinking of would-be dinghy-buyers who only usually end up buying Lasers, etc.
Una-rigged boats are generally the only option for singlehanded racing of course, but there's no need to limit the approach to singlehanded cruising.
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Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Dan
I know that you have denied the suggestion in the past that you might capsize, but if you did, have you considered how much water the snuffer will catch. If you do not snuff the sail when over then it will still collect water at the masthead & you still have to drop a spinnaker but this time with a wet snuffer attached. If you try snuffing the sail prior to righting it will be full of water. Will it not?
Or are you still convinced that you will not capsize?
I know that you have denied the suggestion in the past that you might capsize, but if you did, have you considered how much water the snuffer will catch. If you do not snuff the sail when over then it will still collect water at the masthead & you still have to drop a spinnaker but this time with a wet snuffer attached. If you try snuffing the sail prior to righting it will be full of water. Will it not?
Or are you still convinced that you will not capsize?
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Interesting and persuasive thinking, Mr DB. I'm as certain as I can be that I will capsize, and the thought of a snuffer, like a bucket full of seawater keeping the masthead down, is as good a reason not to have one as any I've heard.
Having said that, some snuffers seem to be made from a gauzy fabric that can't hold water, ideal I suppose since there's better chance of drying-out the spinnaker inside, if it's wet.
As I've said, I'll try the spinn without, on a day when the smoke from my Havana floats away almost vertically. Not much chance of trouble then.
Perhaps I didn't mention that half the reason I need an easy-furling solution for the spinnaker, is to allow me one hand free for the Montecristo.
I like this footage of a chap who's just turned 70, singlehanding his Fireball...pity we don't get the downwind leg, kite up.
Having said that, some snuffers seem to be made from a gauzy fabric that can't hold water, ideal I suppose since there's better chance of drying-out the spinnaker inside, if it's wet.
As I've said, I'll try the spinn without, on a day when the smoke from my Havana floats away almost vertically. Not much chance of trouble then.
Perhaps I didn't mention that half the reason I need an easy-furling solution for the spinnaker, is to allow me one hand free for the Montecristo.
I like this footage of a chap who's just turned 70, singlehanding his Fireball...pity we don't get the downwind leg, kite up.
DJE
Well-Known Member
This is how it works with a spinaker chute. He drops the kite at about 2:50.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enuv0CHY_ts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enuv0CHY_ts
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Thanks DJE, nice little video...the Vareo looks much faster than her handicap suggests.
Her rig also looks much easier to singlehand, as it would be, and her asymmetric is very petite beside the Osprey's symmetric kite.
No argument, the chute is a slick way of tidying the sail away. But I'm less keen than I was about mangling my foredeck, at least until I've tried using the spinnaker without a chute.
Her rig also looks much easier to singlehand, as it would be, and her asymmetric is very petite beside the Osprey's symmetric kite.
No argument, the chute is a slick way of tidying the sail away. But I'm less keen than I was about mangling my foredeck, at least until I've tried using the spinnaker without a chute.
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