Are Laminate Sails worth it for cruisers

[[70521]]

I keep seeing those posh laminate sails on these forums . Is the improvement for cruisers as good as say a folding prop ?

I think they look nice too but are there problems I.e. poor for furling , longevity etc. Could I say go an extra 10nm each way on a there and back tide sail for a weekend ?

The only time I sailed on a boat with laminated sails was on a VQ32 that had done a lot of racing. The sails were hard work and I would not want them anywhere near a cruising boat.

 

[geem]

Bit late to this thread but here's my 2p worth. What is really worth the money for cruising boats is Radial Hydranet. It's a woven dacron/spectra mix. Oyster Yachts reckon its good for 50,000 miles or a circumnavigation. Minimal stretch, lasts well, isn't like flaking cardboard, what's not to like? It's pretty expensive.

Yes they will last 50,000nm but they stretch for fun once you get the miles in them.
We went for Vectran. A noticeable improvement in windward performance. We hope to get 40,000nm out of them. Our last Dacron main did 20k and the genoa 27k. The genoa was particularly knackered at 27k nm

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The only time I sailed on a boat with laminated sails was on a VQ32 that had done a lot of racing. The sails were hard work and I would not want them anywhere near a cruising boat.

Hard work? I don't quite understand that. They are lighter than Dacron, is it just the stiffness you didn't enjoy? If you're a hank on, sail changing type, that is understandable. The cloth development has gone hand in hand with modern sail handling. Having said that, the 8m fleet now is almost exclusively laminate, it's not penalised in the class rules AFAIK. They don't have full battens or roller furlers, and not big crews either, though more than most cruising yachts

 

[Daydream believer]

The only time I sailed on a boat with laminated sails was on a VQ32 that had done a lot of racing. The sails were hard work and I would not want them anywhere near a cruising boat.

I think that racing fore sails can be harder work to actually steer the boat. The shape has the flow slightly further forward but the lead into the flow is sharper. This seems wrong but it can be cut as such. It so the sail can point higher. However, the helm has a much narrower band in which the sail can be held to get the max that it is designed for. In addition the curve in the leech & tension of the halyard has an effect on the flow of air on the fullness & where this fullness comes. A cruising sail will be fuller with the belly a little further aft. It is a more comfortable sail to steer with.
A new North race sail will probably have a different flow shape to a new North cruising sail. This may not be obvious just looking at it.
A boat set up with a tighter rig (mine has the upper shrouds set at 24-26% without backstay set) will have aluff that will deflect less from the straight line. This will also change the shape of the sail as the luff is pulled into shape.
A cruising boat where the lea shrouds are slack when sailing to weather will probably have a slack jib luff with excessive curve. (plus flexing) The shape will be totally different. But it may well be easier to steer having a wider band in which it can point to windward. One can see this with the woolies.
I would imagine that Charia is like some older tris & may have a jib designed for a slack forestay, because the trimaran will not be so stiff as a monohull. It may be that his rig all comes off the central hull to avoid this issue. The better tris will paddle less & the rig can be tensioned more. Older tris had to have quite odd jib shape, even taking in to account the distance from forestay to bow, to allow for the slack. Not an issue when they are designed predominantly for off wind performance
Perhaps he might comment

 

[johnalison]

I would imagine that Charia is like some older tris & may have a jib designed for a slack forestay, because the trimaran will not be so stiff as a monohull. It may be that his rig all comes off the central hull to avoid this issue. The better tris will paddle less & the rig can be tensioned more. Older tris had to have quite odd jib shape, even taking in to account the distance from forestay to bow, to allow for the slack. Not an issue when they are designed predominantly for off wind performance
Perhaps he might comment

I believe that the Dutch have been doing this for centuries, having found that cutting a bow from the luff restores the boat's pointing ability in the necessarily slack rigs of the day.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

My rig comes off the outriggers, with fairly powerful 4:1 running backstays that deflect the side stays, attached 2m above deck. We have 10mm dyform waterstays, from main hull waterline to Top of outrigger hulls, so you can wind the backstays on quite hard, winched with all the strength of one arm, the manual says. in medium winds. Beams are loaded only in compression. The forestay is therefore fairly straight. It's set up for on wind performance, off wind she likes the asymmetric set to really take off. The jib is 110%, pretty flat cut, draught well forward. Main thing to watch out for is that the apparent wind doesn't change much as you bear off. Newcomers to the helm find that a glance at TWA is helpful when beating. Looking up the forestay shows maybe 150mm deflection, in 13m.

 

[Daydream believer]

My rig comes off the outriggers, with fairly powerful 4:1 running backstays that deflect the side stays, attached 2m above deck. We have 10mm dyform waterstays, from main hull waterline to Top of outrigger hulls, so you can wind the backstays on quite hard, winched with all the strength of one arm, the manual says. in medium winds. Beams are loaded only in compression. The forestay is therefore fairly straight. It's set up for on wind performance, off wind she likes the asymmetric set to really take off. The jib is 110%, pretty flat cut, draught well forward. Main thing to watch out for is that the apparent wind doesn't change much as you bear off. Newcomers to the helm find that a glance at TWA is helpful when beating. Looking up the forestay shows maybe 150mm deflection, in 13m.

I am surprised that with a folding outer floats, you do not get a lot of paddling of the hulls. It is said to be difficult enough to keep fixed hulls rigid on lighter boats, so hulls with hinge points would be even harder

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I am surprised that with a folding outer floats, you do not get a lot of paddling of the hulls. It is said to be difficult enough to keep fixed hulls rigid on lighter boats, so hulls with hinge points would be even harder

The bows can flex a little in waves. The structure is pretty rigid once you’re back to the front beams. The hinge points are neither here nor there for that. Once the boat is fully open, the beams push on their bearing surfaces on hull and outriggers, held there by rig tension and waterstays.

 

[flaming]

I do not race. However, my furler was, until this year one with a fixed length forestay. I have had my mast down 5 times ( expensive & time consuming) to fit a new stay. Thus, gradually raking the mast further forward at the top. Most Hanse boats have a fair degree of aft rake. Mine is now upright. I even renewed the rigging at 8 years to change the way the mast behaved ( It is 11/12 fractional) I had taken some of the curve out of the luff & had the ST cut to suit
I spent ages playing with the tension & matching mast bend to the sails. I changed the backstay to 32:1 & changed the halyards to dynema. Vang to dynema with a greater purchase.
So I did not just buy better sails each time. I have now had another set of rigging (at 19 years) & invested in an adjustable forestay.
I have a loos gauge & have spent a lot of time setting the rig.
In my mind it is not just the sails but the whole set up. It has made the helm lighter & my Aries now takes it upwind, as if on rails, at a consistent speed. I am not a good enough helm, but my son will stick it on 6.5kts up wind & it will stay there. I can point higher than most. Not bad for a 31ft cruising boat with so much gear that it sits 2 inches lower than it might, if in race trim, on its waterline. I also have Coppercoat which has a negative effect on the boat due to slime build up very soon after launching. Some of my passages have been fairly fast, but I would not quote them here, as I tend to be fairly good at picking the tides to my benefit.
I would say that I plan to better 6kts if I can for most trips over 50 miles. That is down to sails, rig & passage planning & the urge to get a move on.

I'd love to hear more about the rig tune, as I'm surprised that you found upwind performance by making the rig more upright. Is it a deck stepped or keel stepped rig?

Overall though, yes, rig tune is incredibly important and often overlooked.

 

[Daydream believer]

I'd love to hear more about the rig tune, as I'm surprised that you found upwind performance by making the rig more upright. Is it a deck stepped or keel stepped rig?

Overall though, yes, rig tune is incredibly important and often overlooked.

Mast is deck stepped . All the advice is to rake the mast back. But that was putting pressure on the rudder. I started by having the original supplied East main re cut. Then bought a new Hyde Marble head racing main. Then the current Fibrecon sail from Hyde. I found that moving the C of G forward slightly by having sails with a more stable c of G helped a lot. But as I moved the mast rake forward, then I had to tension up the rig to stop first, mast pumping, then add pre bend . I then found that mids & lowers had to be matched to uppers to allow the bend to increase when backstay applied. But it did not have to be so slack that the middle of the mast falls away when the backstay is not pulled up tight. But I had to get max 150mm of bend at full backstay. So that needed 32:1 instead of the old 8:1.
At one point I had the mast dropped & I made a new mast step to raise the mast 8mm to allow me to tension the wires more
The jib had to be matched to the slightly tighter forestay & that is now adjustable.
In 2023 I had new rigging complete, with shorter mids, as the old ones stretched. Unfortunately due to engine issues & health problems I have lost all the settings, so I will have to start all over again in 2024 with the loos gauge. The forestay, being adjustable, is now a different length & I need to get that sorted first.
I have also adusted the Aries, (new oar & vane) so will not have a helming standard to compare with.

 

[flaming]

Mast is deck stepped . All the advice is to rake the mast back. But that was putting pressure on the rudder. I started by having the original supplied East main re cut. Then bought a new Hyde Marble head racing main. Then the current Fibrecon sail from Hyde. I found that moving the C of G forward slightly by having sails with a more stable c of G helped a lot. But as I moved the mast rake forward, then I had to tension up the rig to stop first, mast pumping, then add pre bend . I then found that mids & lowers had to be matched to uppers to allow the bend to increase when backstay applied. But it did not have to be so slack that the middle of the mast falls away when the backstay is not pulled up tight. But I had to get max 150mm of bend at full backstay. So that needed 32:1 instead of the old 8:1.
At one point I had the mast dropped & I made a new mast step to raise the mast 8mm to allow me to tension the wires more
The jib had to be matched to the slightly tighter forestay & that is now adjustable.
In 2023 I had new rigging complete, with shorter mids, as the old ones stretched. Unfortunately due to engine issues & health problems I have lost all the settings, so I will have to start all over again in 2024 with the loos gauge. The forestay, being adjustable, is now a different length & I need to get that sorted first.
I have also adusted the Aries, (new oar & vane) so will not have a helming standard to compare with.

I would be fascinated to know what that's done for your pointing.

Adjustable forestay is a very useful tool for us, do you intend tweaking it most days for conditions, or setting for the season?

 

[Daydream believer]

I would be fascinated to know what that's done for your pointing.

Adjustable forestay is a very useful tool for us, do you intend tweaking it most days for conditions, or setting for the season?

Pointing improved, possibly because having a better, lighter feel on the rudder(with less drag I expect). It is the best pointing boat I have ever sailed in. Also the Aries runs better on it- In some conditions. But that being said I still have the "bad hair day", when I just cannot get anything right
Adjusting the stay is not easy. Takes an hour so once set -leave it.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I am past the age of bad hair days

 

[flaming]

Pointing improved, possibly because having a better, lighter feel on the rudder(with less drag I expect). It is the best pointing boat I have ever sailed in. Also the Aries runs better on it- In some conditions. But that being said I still have the "bad hair day", when I just cannot get anything right
Adjusting the stay is not easy. Takes an hour so once set -leave it.

Do you have numbers for the better pointing or just a "this feels better?"

Not questioning it, just trying to understand. Though it sounds like you had weatherhelm as a major issue.

 

[Daydream believer]

Do you have numbers for the better pointing or just a "this feels better?"

Not questioning it, just trying to understand. Though it sounds like you had weatherhelm as a major issue.

One can feel when it is in the groove & one is rarely out pointed by another.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

One can feel when it is in the groove & one is rarely out pointed by another.

In any case, how would you measure a degree or so. If the boat feels better, you sail better. It’s all you need.

 

[michael_w]

One can feel when it is in the groove & one is rarely out pointed by another.

But are they footing faster, and will arrive at the windward mark ahead??

 

[Daydream believer]

But are they footing faster, and will arrive at the windward mark ahead??

That is the point------------ They don't

 

[Chiara’s slave]

XOD trim and tuning, best not to start. The DF is much simpler. Wind the tension on and then it’s all in the sail trim. Jib cars set for the wind, and of course if you’ve got any rolls in it. Then sheet it home, til it’s an inch off the diamonds. Then tune out the helm with mainsheet. We play the main on the traveller if there’s a lot of wind for the sail plan. Letting the sheet off gives you lee helm and is a bugger to get back in. Just like Daydream believer, you have to settle the boat into itks groove. The advantage of laminate sails is that, if your sheets are dyneema, you don’t usually have to vary the sheet tension much in gusts, theres nothing stretching. Unlike muscling an XOD to windward, where the jib is constantly sheeted for the wind strength.

 

[GHA]

In any case, how would you measure a degree or so.

gps &/or compass into a raspberry pi, log & plot the data. Will show tiny trends impossible to notice using human eyes looking at a screen. Signalk does all this.
This is Nasa compass with boat on a pontoon