Are Laminate Sails worth it for cruisers

[flaming]

Just for clarity, I'm not suggesting that laminate sails are not better, they are. The shape is better and they hold their shape for longer.

The question was are they worth the extra for the cruising sailor. IMHO, I don't think so. Most cruising sailors either won't be able to get that extra 2 degrees of height or 0.2kts of boatspeed out of them (if they even actually care about it anyway). The majority of cruising boats I've seen sailing or been on have poorly tuned rigs, and the skipper does not understand how to set sails properly. I regularly get comments from people on how I am "constantly mucking about with all the ropes". Most cruising boats are also sailed by a couple, and their focus is not getting there as quick as possible, but are more focussed on having a nice sail and not spilling the tea.

If you want that extra bit, they by all means go and buy yourselves some 3Di sails, but would you, really?

If you think laminates are only worth 2 degrees and 0.2 upwind… You’d be somewhat mistaken.

 

[Bobc]

If you think laminates are only worth 2 degrees and 0.2 upwind… You’d be somewhat mistaken.

All depends on the boat. I thought cruising sailors only sail downwind anyway.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

All depends on the boat. I thought cruising sailors only sail downwind anyway.

We happily sail upwind when cruising. Almost always 2 up, too. But we’ll still tweak. Even as far as holding the mainsheet in hand. Square top mains are sensitive to trim.

 

[fredrussell]

I think that (as often in the sailing world) it simply comes down to how much money you have. I spent £4k on Dacron sails as I simply didn’t have £10k spare for laminate ones. This is an interesting forum as it combines those with, say, a quarter of a million pound plaything, with those who have a £10k plaything.

I’m guessing nearly all owners of laminate sails either race their boat, or have a bit of disposable income knocking about. I think I’m a fairly typical cruising sailor of the sort Bobc describes. The last thing I’d want to do in my boat is race it, sailing being, for me, a peaceful and relaxing escape from the hurly-burly. Making my boat able to go 10% faster or point a bit higher would be nice, but is not the be-all and end-all for me, so instead of a £10k set of sails I just try to keep the tell-tales flowing.

 

[Bobc]

We happily sail upwind when cruising. Almost always 2 up, too. But we’ll still tweak. Even as far as holding the mainsheet in hand. Square top mains are sensitive to trim.

but yours is hardly a "typical cruising boat", and you don't spill your tea.

 

[Bobc]

I think that (as often in the sailing world) it simply comes down to how much money you have. I spent £4k on Dacron sails as I simply didn’t have £10k spare for laminate ones. This is an interesting forum as it combines those with, say, a quarter of a million pound plaything, with those who have a £10k plaything.

I’m guessing nearly all owners of laminate sails either race their boat, or have a bit of disposable income knocking about.

Exactly. The two main protagonists for laminates on this thread, are both racing sailors and have performance boats.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I think that (as often in the sailing world) it simply comes down to how much money you have. I spent £4k on Dacron sails as I simply didn’t have £10k spare for laminate ones. This is an interesting forum as it combines those with, say, a quarter of a million pound plaything, with those who have a £10k plaything.

I’m guessing nearly all owners of laminate sails either race their boat, or have a bit of disposable income knocking about.

Whilst theres something in that, our sailing investment is a fraction of that 250k. Laminate sails for our boat are about 10k. Total boat value, maybe 70k with good new sails. We wouldn’t have bought her if we couldn’t afford to keep her with the sails to which she is accustomed.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Exactly. The two main protagonists for laminates on this thread, are both racing sailors and have performance boats.

We rarely race the Dragonfly. I race in a class that prohibits laminate sails. I spend more on sails on that boat than the Dragonfly. 4 jibs and 1-2 mains per season, to get anywhere near the front of the fleet. The initial investment in laminates is greater, but we’d spend less if they were allowed. We might well use less than 1/4 as many.

 

[Neeves]

You do not need a complete set of laminate sails. You could simply start with a laminate headsail, your Genoa. If YOU notice a difference and have the spare cash ... buy another sail, your main.

We had a laminate headsail on our cruising cat and when it had past its sail by date - we bought another. We never raced Josepheline - if you race you do so to win - its difficult to win on a cruising yacht in competition with racing yachts unless you remove all the domestic appliance, extra anchors, books etc etc.

Class rules for X-99s were a laminate Genoa and everything else Dacron. For non class racing I had a laminate main. We swapped from one to the other.

Laminates don't like being stuffed into sail bags nor folded. For the X-99 the laminates were simply rolled and stored rolled on the cabin sole. For our cat the headsail was on a furler.

Jonathan

 

[Bobc]

We rarely race the Dragonfly. I race in a class that prohibits laminate sails. I spend more on sails on that boat than the Dragonfly. 4 jibs and 1-2 mains per season, to get anywhere near the front of the fleet. The initial investment in laminates is greater, but we’d spend less if they were allowed. We might well use less than 1/4 as many.

I chose my words carefully.

You are a racing sailor, (so understand how to set a rig and sail properly upwind), and you have a performance boat (this thread is about laminate sails on a cruising boat, so your personal choices on your boat are not very relevant to someone who has something like a Moody 362 or Westerly Konsort).

 

[dunedin]

That will fox Charia. Most multihulls can only sail 90 deg to the wind. So he will have to wait for the tide to get there. He will be raging back & forth like a lion at the zoo behind the cage. Going no where fast.

That is rather an out dated view. Modern tris can often go to windward making VMGs much faster than equivalent monohulls - indeed in the Transat Jaques Vabre some were doing well over 20 knots upwind.
Clearly the block of flats style charter cats are somewhat less spritely.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I chose my words carefully.

You are a racing sailor, (so understand how to set a rig and sail properly upwind), and you have a performance boat (this thread is about laminate sails on a cruising boat, so your personal choices on your boat are not very relevant to someone who has something like a Moody 362 or Westerly Konsort).

Thank you for the glib dismissal of my input. I, on the other hand, am not so arrogant as to think I am necessarily any better a sailor than your Moody 362 skipper, nor trash his aspirations to improve his boat’s performance. Yes, I can sail around boats like that as if they are marks of the course, yours too I have no doubt. A feature of design, not sailing ability. I tend to measure things differently. A laminate sail might give someone considerably more gain than you suppose, and give pleasure out of proportion to that. And, in keeping it’s shape when the wind pipes up, enable the boat to keep her distance from a lee shore or other hazard. Making a boat sail better, what’s not to love?

 

[dunedin]

All depends on the boat. I thought cruising sailors only sail downwind anyway.

Your view of cruising doesn’t match everybodies.

 

[flaming]

All depends on the boat. I thought cruising sailors only sail downwind anyway.

Yes… exactly as I said in my first post…

But if you’re trying to make up your mind which way to go, doesn’t help to underestimate the advantages, or costs.

Or equally overestimate.

 

[dunedin]

It was noticeable when we were sailing in Sweden the difference in priorities. Many boats there were smaller and older than typically in the UK. But generally they tended to have prioritised and invested in excellent sails. And they made good use of them.
I remember for example a small flotilla of boats at Utklippan setting off in the morning. We and all the Swedish and German boats set off promptly and were soon sailing upwind in a gentle 8 knots breeze - clearly having an undeclared race cross tacking upwind in the warm sunshine.
Half an hour later the rest of the UK flagged boats set off and motored upwind with sail covers still on.

 

[Supertramp]

Whilst theres something in that, our sailing investment is a fraction of that 250k. Laminate sails for our boat are about 10k. Total boat value, maybe 70k with good new sails. We wouldn’t have bought her if we couldn’t afford to keep her with the sails to which she is accustomed.

Well put - if I had a boat like yours I would have the same priorities. While cost comes into it, this is more about how you sail than what you sail. Most of the time when sailing I set the boat up for a course and then leave her self steering to the wind or on autopilot. Maybe tweak every 30 minutes or few hours! Thats my kind of cruising and I lose some speed doing this but it doesn't worry me. Enjoy the view, make a meal, navigate etc.

Very different when racing. Even quite basic boats sport laminate sails and use them well.

It depends what sort of cruising you do, and perhaps whether you ever race your boat.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Well put - if I had a boat like yours I would have the same priorities. While cost comes into it, this is more about how you sail than what you sail. Most of the time when sailing I set the boat up for a course and then leave her self steering to the wind or on autopilot. Maybe tweak every 30 minutes or few hours! Thats my kind of cruising and I lose some speed doing this but it doesn't worry me. Enjoy the view, make a meal, navigate etc.

Very different when racing. Even quite basic boats sport laminate sails and use them well.

It depends what sort of cruising you do, and perhaps whether you ever race your boat.

I think we could summarise, and say that if you like to see your telltales streaming nicely, then laminate sails are a good investment.

 

[johnalison]

It was noticeable when we were sailing in Sweden the difference in priorities. Many boats there were smaller and older than typically in the UK. But generally they tended to have prioritised and invested in excellent sails. And they made good use of them.
I remember for example a small flotilla of boats at Utklippan setting off in the morning. We and all the Swedish and German boats set off promptly and were soon sailing upwind in a gentle 8 knots breeze - clearly having an undeclared race cross tacking upwind in the warm sunshine.
Half an hour later the rest of the UK flagged boats set off and motored upwind with sail covers still on.

That would be my observation too. I first started to think more seriously about sails when we were sailing in the Great Belt in 1990 in our then Sadler 29. On a windward passage with one reef and perhaps some rolls in the padded-luff jib I watched an HR 29 just walk away from us with a set of beautifully-setting sails. Although they had a slightly better sailing boat, I was sure that it was the sails that made most of the difference.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

That would be my observation too. I first started to think more seriously about sails when we were sailing in the Great Belt in 1990 in our then Sadler 29. On a windward passage with one reef and perhaps some rolls in the padded-luff jib I watched an HR 29 just walk away from us with a set of beautifully-setting sails. Although they had a slightly better sailing boat, I was sure that it was the sails that made most of the difference.

Especially as once that happens, you start paying serious attention to your trim. if they can noticeably sail away whilst you’re doing that, either their sails are way better, or you have the grandfather of all barnacles on your rudder.

 

[[194497]]

I have very fond memories of the more or less new, very high class laminate genoa that came with my old Sonata. It set so perfectly that it looked like a computer visualisation not a real sail, and compared to the dacron cruising genoa it was really markedly more powerful. Sheeting it in felt like picking up a towrope from a passing motor yacht. If I could afford it, and following a discussion with suppliers about care and longevity, I'd certainly buy one again for cruising. We're supposed to be enjoying the actual sailing, aren't we?