ARC

[Fr J Hackett]

Each to their own opinion, but the world has moved on a lot in the past 10 years.
Most 40 foot plus blue water boats, including ARC boats, have substantial electric power demands - the autopilot is not necessarily one of the bigger demands. Most trans Atlantic boats these days will be running at least one fridge, probably a freezer, powering electronic displays, AIS, often radar, charging multiple devices and sat phones, running a water maker and probably an inverter for the hot water for daily showers for all crew members.
Consequently they will have solar power, almost certainly some form of hydro generator (eg Watt&Sea) and probably a generator as well.
The autopilot is relatively efficient and amazingly effective. Many will carry a spare ram.

Ran an offshore cruising boat with a fridge freezer, radar, AIS and as many and as much tech as I could fit on 34 foot boat that I wanted or could wish for. 200W solar panel no generator, no water maker but could hold enough fuel and water for what was needed but obviously not a shower every day.
1/2HP Lewmar below decks autopilot drive linked in to the Mamba steering controlled by a Raymarine Autopilot CPU ( cuts out the weak link of a ram and its connections) and a small tiller pilot to connect to the Hydrovane in light winds. The hydro vane was always my go to self steering with the exception of a short coastal passage.
Even now depending on the boat I would still fit as first choice exactly the same autopilot drive and most definitely a wind vane.

 

[roblpm]

Each to their own opinion, but the world has moved on a lot in the past 10 years.
Most 40 foot plus blue water boats, including ARC boats, have substantial electric power demands - the autopilot is not necessarily one of the bigger demands. Most trans Atlantic boats these days will be running at least one fridge, probably a freezer, powering electronic displays, AIS, often radar, charging multiple devices and sat phones, running a water maker and probably an inverter for the hot water for daily showers for all crew members.
Consequently they will have solar power, almost certainly some form of hydro generator (eg Watt&Sea) and probably a generator as well.
The autopilot is relatively efficient and amazingly effective. Many will carry a spare ram.

Sure. Thanks for this reply and the previous ones. I get all this. I am fine with tech and would prefer to have a boat bristling with solar, lithium batteries, spare ram etc. However a spare ram doesn't help much if the rudder is damaged.

What I am trying to get at is the efficacy of a hydrovane as an emergency steering solution. I will be buying a 40 foot boat so probably a little easier than the hanse in question.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Sure. Thanks for this reply and the previous ones. I get all this. I am fine with tech and would prefer to have a boat bristling with solar, lithium batteries, spare ram etc. However a spare ram doesn't help much if the rudder is damaged.

What I am trying to get at is the efficacy of a hydrovane as an emergency steering solution. I will be buying a 40 foot boat so probably a little aeasier than the hanse in question.

To answer your question a hydrovane requires your rudder to be locked usually in a central position as though it were steering the boat the hydrovane then acts like an auxiliary rudder to compensate for slight changes in heading or wind. If the rudder is damaged but can be moved to a largely neutral position then a hydrovane will work and steer the boat it will also work if the rudder is completely missing but not as efficiently.

Other types of wind vane are actually connected to the tiller or wheel and use the main rudder to steer the boat. If the main rudder or steering system is damaged then they are unlikely to work.

 

[Goldie]

Most modern autopilots are massively better at steering than a hydrovane, particularly downwind. Indeed the better ones are generally better than most human helms - as a consequence of development on things like short handed round the world race boats. They are so good that some racing rules prohibit the use of an autopilot for fully crewed racing, as the human helms would be disadvantaged.

Indeed, and I have a modern autopilot (Raymarine Ev400) and on shorter trips, I don’t rig the ‘vane. On long trips, I use the ‘vane

 

[roblpm]

To answer your question a hydrovane requires your rudder to be locked usually in a central position as though it were steering the boat the hydrovane then acts like an auxiliary rudder to compensate for slight changes in heading or wind. If the rudder is damaged but can be moved to a largely neutral position then a hydrovane will work and steer the boat it will also work if the rudder is completely missing but not as efficiently.

Other types of wind vane are actually connected to the tiller or wheel and use the main rudder to steer the boat. If the main rudder or steering system is damaged then they are unlikely to work.

So to me it seems like a good idea. The mab doom mongers surely will be slightly reassured when I head off into the deep blue with my awb and a hydrovane. When my rudder inevitably falls off I may have a second option.....

 

[Wandering Star]

I consider a Windvane steering system almost essential for making long passages especially if sailing solo or short handed. I much prefer sailing with a servo pendulum design than with a horizontal axis design. I’ve sailed with both types and found the servo pendulum designs much more powerful and responsive on most points of sail. I do get the “emergency steering” benefit of a Hydrovane system but not at the expense of sacrificing the performance of it’s primary purpose of self steering the boat.

Being dismasted on passage is also a risk but not many skippers would look to shortenimg their spars In order to lessen the risk of a dismasting or carry a spare for that matter. You simply can’t avoid some risks and in my opinion, steering failure or a dismasting are so unlikely to happen (if the boats gear is thoroughly checked before setting off) that I wouldn’t compromise my choice of self steering gear purely on he basis it could provide a backup to the main steering, I’d hope my instinctive survival skills would enable me to sail to somewhere (anywhere) within striking distance of a tow in the event.

If the damage to the steering caused ingress of water, that’s a different problem altogether no emergency steering solution will solve that!

 

[Zing]

I don't know why more boats don't use rod steering and Mamba drives they are built proof.

Mamba Drives | Lewmar

No they are not. My linkage snapped. Twice.

 

[Bajansailor]

@Wandering Star makes very valid comments above - I have sailed on yachts with Aries and Monitor wind vanes, and one advantage of them is that as the wind speed (and the boat speed) increases, the power generated by the servo pendulum arrangement increases enormously.
So much so that in heavy weather a servo pendulum windvane will most probably sail a much better and safer course than any human helm.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

No they are not. My linkage snapped. Twice.

Got any more info on that as the forces required to snap a half inch diameter rod are huge even to bend it would take an enormous amount of force, the same would apply to the rose joint couplings.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

@Wandering Star makes very valid comments above - I have sailed on yachts with Aries and Monitor wind vanes, and one advantage of them is that as the wind speed (and the boat speed) increases, the power generated by the servo pendulum arrangement increases enormously.
So much so that in heavy weather a servo pendulum windvane will most probably sail a much better and safer course than any human helm.

The sensitivity and response of a hydrovane can be adjusted, I am not convinced about this aspect of the argument having sailed with a hydrovane steering a boat in winds in excess of 45 knots with no problems. The issue as with all wind vanes is to balance the boat and sails rather than ask the vane to do more work than it should or is capable of.

 

[Zing]

Got any more info on that as the forces required to snap a half inch diameter rod are huge even to bend it would take an enormous amount of force, the same would apply to the rose joint couplings.

Stress corrosion did it with a clean break at the rose joint. On the other a mixture of corrosion, slightly loose bolts, and a wearing of the splines on a universal joint leading to it breaking completely.

On mine the structure is actually welded tube with rod end sections.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Stress corrosion did it with a clean break at the rose joint. On the other a mixture of corrosion, slightly loose bolts, and a wearing of the splines on a universal joint leading to it breaking completely.

On mine the structure is actually welded tube with rod end sections.

In other words not to put to finer point on it lack of and poor maintenance.

 

[Zing]

In other words not to put to finer point on it lack of and poor maintenance.

No.

The corrosion was invisible until it broke. That’s how stress corrosion often works you know, and boats are in corrosion prone environments.

The bolts that held the splines that were loose should have never worked loose, or should never have been assembled at the wrong torque. How often are your vehicle‘s steering links re-torqued?

Crap design, assembly and poor materials is what it was.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

No. The corrosion was invisible until it broke. That’s how stress corrosion often works you know. The bolts that held the splines that were loose should have never worked loose. How often are your vehicle‘s steering links re-torqued?

Crap design, assembly and poor materials is what it was.

I doubt it and the very nature of a rose joint would eliminate a lot of stress. I will warrant that you never looked at the system infill it broke if it did.

 

[ashtead]

Our pontoon friends have reached the end after 20 days so moored now so I will be asking them when time permits how the hydrovane performed . They were in a standard sort of awb of 12 m so perhaps more typical of many boats today. Don’t think they had a para sail or such like.

 

[Zing]

I doubt it and the very nature of a rose joint would eliminate a lot of stress. I will warrant that you never looked at the system infill it broke if it did.

Actually, it was the shoulder bolt at the rose joint that broke. At the threads, so at a stress riser. No, it was not inspected, because it broke internally, but there was no external sign. You are not expected to inspect there as you are not expected to disassemble your steering in its maintenance. It is a very heavy, overengineered ‘never fail’ part that indeed failed. Not acceptable, but this is a boat and they do break when they ought not to.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Actually, it was the shoulder bolt at the rose joint that broke. At the threads, so at a stress riser. No, it was not inspected, because it broke internally, but there was no external sign. You are not expected to inspect there as you are not expected to disassemble your steering in its maintenance. It is a very heavy, overengineered ‘never fail’ part that indeed failed. Not acceptable, but this is a boat and they do break when they ought not to.

So now it's a fatigue failure of a faulty component nothing to do with the Mamba system. Such failures can occur in any system.

 

[Zing]

So now it's a fatigue failure of a faulty component nothing to do with the Mamba system. Such failures can occur in any system.

No, yet again. You really are trying preposterously hard to prove your points. The part was an integral part of what was an entirely Lewmar supplied Whitlock Mamba steering system. The replacement parts came from them too. A rose joint with shoulder bolt machined to suit.

 

[X49Sailor]

Just completed the ARC and worried about exactly this problem. there are solutions available that are mandatory for some offshore races. I had an emergency rudder in a bag that attaches to four strong points on the stern.

 

[Laser310]

Just completed the ARC and worried about exactly this problem. there are solutions available that are mandatory for some offshore races. I had an emergency rudder in a bag that attaches to four strong points on the stern.

Sometimes what the race organizers will accept as a suitable solution is not something I would actually want to depend on...

btw - i just did ~800nm on an X49 - nice boat!