Bav34
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If I asked you to take my boat over to the Isle of Wight and paid you the return ferry fare would that be payment in kind?
Anyone want a FREEBIES holiday / delivery trip ?
- Thread starter jonbclarke
- Start date
If I asked you to take my boat over to the Isle of Wight and paid you the return ferry fare would that be payment in kind?
dk
Well-known member
While I wouldn't be averse to a nice long passage, by holiday I would expect to have enough 'free' days to take a run ashore or two. Then there's the Med weather in Feb. There's a very good chance at some point you'll meet up with a few days adverse weather, so it'll likely take at least three weeks. Now if I was on a paid delivery trip I'd probably soldier on (within sensible limits), but I doubt many 'freebie' crew would want to battle against the weather when 'on holiday'. And suppose they hit several storms, one after the other, and don't want, or feel safe to carry on? Then there's damage liability - what if they break something on the way, rip the sails or lose the dinghy/outboard/other stuff?
Too many uncovered liabilities for my liking, unless a company or owner's representative was on board. Or you/the owners sign a contract clearly stating that the delivery crew are in no way responsible for any damage, regardless of fault (that's what insurance is for) or the boat being impounded due to lack of correct paperwork.
Why not bite the bullet and at least get a pro paid skipper on each boat, rather than worry about a hundred or so possibly expensive outcomes?
Too many uncovered liabilities for my liking, unless a company or owner's representative was on board. Or you/the owners sign a contract clearly stating that the delivery crew are in no way responsible for any damage, regardless of fault (that's what insurance is for) or the boat being impounded due to lack of correct paperwork.
Why not bite the bullet and at least get a pro paid skipper on each boat, rather than worry about a hundred or so possibly expensive outcomes?
alant
Active member
Arguable, but your boat would be delivered for your use on IoW, whilst these may be being delivered from the builder directly to a commercial sailing company. In my eyes that constitutes a commercial delivery or a delivery for commercial purposes.
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
Even if it did, that would make it a paid delivery, so no coding required. My insurers cover anyone I allow to use my boat.
Bav34
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lindsay
Member
Has anybody actually thought of what is entailed in a 900 mile trip in this area ( my home for the last 20 years) in February and March, and in an unfamiliar boat to boot?
It seems that the dream is : "A holiday in the Med for an amateur sailor sampling local cuisine, wine pasta and pizza leisurely along the way, enjoying warm Spring sunsets and perfect sailing days etc etc." It will most probably be a not-to-be-forgotten epic cruise but not in the way would seem to be imagined. More likely gales, cold (today 9 deg where I am) rain and out of season resorts where most places will be closed until Easter.
Surely a job for a professional skipper and hardened crew?
It seems that the dream is : "A holiday in the Med for an amateur sailor sampling local cuisine, wine pasta and pizza leisurely along the way, enjoying warm Spring sunsets and perfect sailing days etc etc." It will most probably be a not-to-be-forgotten epic cruise but not in the way would seem to be imagined. More likely gales, cold (today 9 deg where I am) rain and out of season resorts where most places will be closed until Easter.
Surely a job for a professional skipper and hardened crew?
lpdsn
New member
As I understood it, the key argument they used against Doug Innes was that the boat was being relocated for commercial purposes, so they argued (successfully) that the fact there was no payment from the crew was irrelevant. I believe you are right that if the OP is one of two private owners wanting the boats moved for their own purposes commercial doesn't come into it. I'd want to be certain of that myself if I were going to get involved.
And of course we're mainly discussing this in terms of the UK & English Law. Other countries are involved.
Good question. Another grey area I think, but again maybe the key factor is whether the boat is owned commercially or privately.
jonbclarke
New member
Hi Guys,
Sorry to have been a bit quiet on this, day-to-day job takes precedence over offering free sailing trips
but anyway firstly I really appreciate the general thoughts and feedback on this -
In answer to some of the common questions;
Payment for the skippers - Understood you can have professional skippers undertake this, but as they're both my yachts I figured I'd see if I could construct a 'win-win' for someone who wants a sailing trip for next to nothing whilst saving the cost of two full delivery crews.
Qualifications - of course we'd want to vet anyone a bit to check they had the sailing nuance to do it which will involve a mixture of qualifications and experience, we've all here been sailing for a long time and can fairly reliably spot a good sailor.
Flexibility around time - Yes can be a bit flexible on the departure dates to within a week either way of the 20th to suit people. Theres no big rush to get them to Greece but would probably prefer you didn't go there the West-way around, ideally mid-march which gives about 4 weeks.
Food - If having food is what makes the difference then will certainly look into this, probably by means of a daily ££ allowance however rather than stocking the boat - went down this route for avoidance of hassle and making sure the crews get the food they actually want, not all of you enjoy spam like I do
Insurance - this is the point a lot of the debate has circled on, and I understand why! trust me I don't want a lawsuit on my hands or a busted boat, as a direct result from the various (appreciated) thoughts, we've been over this in depth with our insurers, their own counsel and their opinion is that for various reasons I'm not inclined to try and understand, it doesn't cause them any concern - we will have to demonstrate that we've checked a potential skip and their mates can sail but otherwise they're fundamentally all good with it, and naturally we'd check all this again with them before committing anyone but appreciate the concern on this area.
Weather - Ideally this would be a summer delivery, unfortunately other factors prevent this, but we all prefer to sail in the sunshine given the choice, hopefully a free sail in the (relative) warm will be enough for now.
Offer still stands anyway!
Sorry to have been a bit quiet on this, day-to-day job takes precedence over offering free sailing trips
but anyway firstly I really appreciate the general thoughts and feedback on this -In answer to some of the common questions;
Payment for the skippers - Understood you can have professional skippers undertake this, but as they're both my yachts I figured I'd see if I could construct a 'win-win' for someone who wants a sailing trip for next to nothing whilst saving the cost of two full delivery crews.
Qualifications - of course we'd want to vet anyone a bit to check they had the sailing nuance to do it which will involve a mixture of qualifications and experience, we've all here been sailing for a long time and can fairly reliably spot a good sailor.
Flexibility around time - Yes can be a bit flexible on the departure dates to within a week either way of the 20th to suit people. Theres no big rush to get them to Greece but would probably prefer you didn't go there the West-way around, ideally mid-march which gives about 4 weeks.
Food - If having food is what makes the difference then will certainly look into this, probably by means of a daily ££ allowance however rather than stocking the boat - went down this route for avoidance of hassle and making sure the crews get the food they actually want, not all of you enjoy spam like I do
Insurance - this is the point a lot of the debate has circled on, and I understand why! trust me I don't want a lawsuit on my hands or a busted boat, as a direct result from the various (appreciated) thoughts, we've been over this in depth with our insurers, their own counsel and their opinion is that for various reasons I'm not inclined to try and understand, it doesn't cause them any concern - we will have to demonstrate that we've checked a potential skip and their mates can sail but otherwise they're fundamentally all good with it, and naturally we'd check all this again with them before committing anyone but appreciate the concern on this area.
Weather - Ideally this would be a summer delivery, unfortunately other factors prevent this, but we all prefer to sail in the sunshine given the choice, hopefully a free sail in the (relative) warm will be enough for now.
Offer still stands anyway!
Mister Rhino
New member
The point you are missing about insurance is this, if I destroy the boat and cause expensive damage to others and/or pollution, your ins. company may well payout, but they then come after me.
If you indemnify me, you will almost certainly invalidate your own insurance.
Further, at least under UK law, this would very likely be a commercial voyage. What are the yachts going to be used for in Corfu?
I asked about coding as it is relevant to the state of the boats and as to their legal status, not because it is required, although it almost certainly is under UK Law. Money changing hands is not the only test for commercial activity
What is the flag of the vessels?
If you indemnify me, you will almost certainly invalidate your own insurance.
Further, at least under UK law, this would very likely be a commercial voyage. What are the yachts going to be used for in Corfu?
I asked about coding as it is relevant to the state of the boats and as to their legal status, not because it is required, although it almost certainly is under UK Law. Money changing hands is not the only test for commercial activity
What is the flag of the vessels?
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RupertW
Well-known member
It certainly would need to be approached like a delivery so no port hopping. When I did the same journey from San Raphael I think to Vounaki in a new 34 footer in February it was one night stop and refuel at Porto Cuervo in Sardinis, and to let off the third crew member, then non stop from there.
Yes a memory including gales and rain and diving in to clear a prop in very cold water but all doable by two people - me just an average South coast sailor - you just had to forget to stop. A third crew member or an autohelm would have been nice.
jonbclarke
New member
Hi Rhino,
Thank you for the thoughts - all I know to the question of insurance is that I've asked them, on both fronts, and they are happy that as long as the test to make sure you're qualified has been met that they'd pay out and would cover and indemnify in the same - but perhaps they misunderstood what I'm asking for them and its an area I'd rather be 'whiter than white', Per your thoughts then I'll reword my question to our insurers and see what they come back with.
Equally I'm not attempting to give our skippers a license to be outright willfully careless, if they are legitimately to blame if the boat is written off, i.e. motoring it intentionally onto the rocks, then I'd entirely expect the insurer to followup with them.
I might be wrong but am not certain why the trip would be subject to UK law, Greek or French potentially but other than the fact I currently live in the UK I'm not sure why we'd need to apply the UK regs to this trip? The boats won't be in the UK, the trip won't take place in the UK, theres no business activity located within the UK or through a UK company...so my presumption (and I'm always completely happy to be corrected) was that it wouldn't necessarily be subject to the UK regs?
Spyro
Well-known member
You've bought 2 brand new Jeanneaus You're probably going to be chartering them in Greece, hence the deadline and you want to skimp on paying a delivery crew or delivery to Greece by Jeanneau. You sell it well though, In February it's not a jolly through the med.
Good luck
Good luck
alant
Active member
Or owned privately, but leased/chartered to a commercial operation.
jonbclarke
New member
You are spot on
Absolutely we don't want to incur expense we don't have to, surely that makes sense to most right? If someone qualified is happy to do it for the fun, then I'm happy for it to cost me less, if no-one wants to then fair enough.alant
Active member
What are they flagged?
lpdsn
New member
You're probably right, but you've come on to a mainly UK site to recruit crew so no surprise the discussion is mainly around UK regs.
I guess the skipper and crew could always get PI insurance - albeit as they're not professionals then maybe Amateur Indemnity Insurance.
LadyInBed
Well-known member
I'm curious to know how the boats are fitted out for that sort of trip.
IE: Inner forestay and storm jib, life raft, electronic aids - ais, radar, autohelm, chart plotter. Size of fuel and water tanks.
To name but a few!
IE: Inner forestay and storm jib, life raft, electronic aids - ais, radar, autohelm, chart plotter. Size of fuel and water tanks.
To name but a few!
Prasutigus
New member
A 900M unpaid delivery in the middle of winter?
You may find that people who've actually done things like that won't do it for nothing; but eager young 'up-for-anything' volunteers might not be ideal candidates...
I hope it all goes well anyway, but think you might end up 'biting the bullet'..
RupertW
Well-known member
When I did the same delivery trip and across the Atlantic the answers were the same - a life raft but no radar, no autohelm, no chartplotter, no ais, no Epirb or plbs, no charts apart from destination harbour plus some photocopies of passage charts, no inner forestay, storm jib or spare sails, water and fuel as standard on a cruising boat (plus some nicked and cleaned containers of diesel from a nearby yard for the Atlantic one.
You normally need far less than you would think to sail a boat - I try to remind myself of that as I buy yet another thing for my own boat,
