Any issues for Liveaboards based in Spain

[Tranona]

I think you may have. The blessed Theresa's last pronouncement on the subject (last week, in China) was that EU nationals arriving in the UK after March 2019 could not expect to acquire residency by right. Reciprocity is the name of the game. (The EU27 is meanwhile insisting that all the 'four freedoms' must endure during any transition period.)

Of course none of this guarantees what will eventually be agreed, but if you're going to read the runes, best not miss any.

Think you are reading too much into that as far as visitors are concerned. Residence and rights are the issues she was dealing with. Doubt there will be any discussion on visitors until the rights that come within "Freedom of Movement" are agreed. The freedoms of movement around Europe for UK citizens predates the EU and the only thing that has been discussed so far has been some form of visa for travel (as opposed to residence and right to work) with no suggestion of time limitations.

 

[macd]

A few EU countries have a lot of resident (but many not formally so) British ex pats and they won't want them to leave because of the income they generate but unfortunately the other states may overrule any deal to keep allowing free movement. We already have a situation where Spain enforces the residence rule whereas Portugal doesn't so it's anyone's guess what the future holds.

It was agreed in the 'divorce' phase in December, and is currently being drafted into legally-binding form, that EU citizens formally resident in the UK before march 2019 will retain their existing right of UK residence. It was further agreed that UK citizens formally resident in the EU27 after then will retain that right of residence (although not necessarily extending to free movement rights in the 26 other EU countries).

 

[macd]

Think you are reading too much into that as far as visitors are concerned.

I think not, since I haven't once mentioned visitors. My remarks address possible future issues facing UK citizens who might consider residence in the EU, hence the frequent use of words like "residence".

 

[Tranona]

I think not, since I haven't once mentioned visitors. My remarks address possible future issues facing UK citizens who might consider residence in the EU, hence the frequent use of words like "residence".

Sorry. Read the first sentence of your post#15 again and you will see why I responded as I did. Your post conflates possible future travel conditions and residence. They are neither connected, nor as I suggest the former have yet to be discussed.

Extrapolating further, although there are proposals for residence and work conditions in the transition/implementation period, there have been no proposals for after that date. The only indication is that the UK will continue to allow EU citizens to both live and work in the UK, but with no firm proposals on conditions, nor whether these will be reciprocated by the EU.

So as usual on these matters anything after March 2019 is largely guesswork or speculation.

 

[macd]

Your post conflates possible future travel conditions and residence. They are neither connected, nor as I suggest the former have yet to be discussed.

Not a conflation, in my view, but a conundrum: post Brexit it may be that one can exceed the 183 day limit (which could require you to become resident) only by overstaying a 90-day visa, which would probably see you deported. For this, and other likely reasons, if becoming EU27 resident is desirable for an individual, they might be best advised to do so before March 2019.

Extrapolating further, although there are proposals for residence and work conditions in the transition/implementation period, there have been no proposals for after that date. The only indication is that the UK will continue to allow EU citizens to both live and work in the UK, but with no firm proposals on conditions, nor whether these will be reciprocated by the EU.

This is simply not true (see report referenced below).

The EU's stance on this, from its initial position paper onwards, has been more liberal than the UK's. It's always been highly likely that they will reciprocate on any agreement with the UK (and also press the UK to greater liberality, as they have with their recent Transition proposals.

To be more specific, I refer you to the EU/UK Joint Report on the divorce agreement:
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/joint_report.pdf
which states this (and much more in subsequent sections, should anyone care to read it):
6. The overall objective of the Withdrawal Agreement with respect to citizens' rights is to provide reciprocal protection for Union and UK citizens, to enable the effective exercise of rights derived from Union law and based on past life choices, where those citizens have exercised free movement rights by the specified date.
(The bolds are mine to highlight elements which have cropped up in this thread.)

So as usual on these matters anything after March 2019 is largely guesswork or speculation.

True. But there's a difference between informed speculation and the idle chatter we often encounter. (I happily and respectfully acknowledge that you are very far from party to the latter.)

 

[jaba]

Adam,

Boats are a customs thing. If you bring one in which is registered in another country, it may stay up to 180 days in the country without being "imported". Import, in this sense, means it will have to operate under all local regulations. Usually this means re-registering, but it's possible to maintain original registration, as long as you meet all local regulations (pay circulation taxes, carry equipment, meet seamanship regulations).

Avoid import by parking in Gibraltar, France or Morocco before 180 days are up.

Do it legal by getting advice from a "gestor" - a tax lawyer - and importing the boat properly.

Does it mean that if a EU citizen parks his boat in a Spanish marina for more than 6 months without being there, he has nonetheless to "pay (Spanish) circulation taxes, carry equipment, meet seamanship regulations", or even "import" the boat to Spain? Does this also apply to the Canary Islands? Could someone please elaborate? I could not find elsewhere the relevant infos.
thks
j

 

[AB1707]

Hi everyone,
Thanks again for the advice that the majority of you have given, it’s very helpful. My boat is 1997 build and by doing the sums if I was liable it would only be €900 max. I did email a lawyer who could get me exemption his standard fee was €1400 + tax.
Having thought this through (before the hijack of the EU debate- which is relevant but nobody knows so, let’s wait and see)
I am going to carefully count my days and see how the land lies.

Thank you all again,
Adam

 

[Tranona]

Does it mean that if a EU citizen parks his boat in a Spanish marina for more than 6 months without being there, he has nonetheless to "pay (Spanish) circulation taxes, carry equipment, meet seamanship regulations", or even "import" the boat to Spain? Does this also apply to the Canary Islands? Could someone please elaborate? I could not find elsewhere the relevant infos.
thks
j

No. There are no restrictions nor conditions attached to a boat owned by an EU resident being kept in Spain. It is governed by the rules of the flag state, so no need to meet any Spanish requirements. This applies even if the boat is owned by a non Spanish EU citizen who is resident in Spain.

The 6 months refers to the person, not the boat, although if the person does become resident then the boat has to be imported and matriculation tax paid. However, the boat can still stay on another register.

 

[GrahamM376]

No. There are no restrictions nor conditions attached to a boat owned by an EU resident being kept in Spain.

As said above, boats aren't a problem but be prepared for a car to be clamped and required to be put on Spanish plates if seen in the same area for long periods. Enforcement (or not) varies from area to area.

 

[Tranona]

Not a conflation, in my view, but a conundrum: post Brexit it may be that one can exceed the 183 day limit (which could require you to become resident) only by overstaying a 90-day visa, which would probably see you deported. For this, and other likely reasons, if becoming EU27 resident is desirable for an individual, they might be best advised to do so before March 2019.



This is simply not true (see report referenced below).

The EU's stance on this, from its initial position paper onwards, has been more liberal than the UK's. It's always been highly likely that they will reciprocate on any agreement with the UK (and also press the UK to greater liberality, as they have with their recent Transition proposals.

To be more specific, I refer you to the EU/UK Joint Report on the divorce agreement:
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/joint_report.pdf
which states this (and much more in subsequent sections, should anyone care to read it):
6. The overall objective of the Withdrawal Agreement with respect to citizens' rights is to provide reciprocal protection for Union and UK citizens, to enable the effective exercise of rights derived from Union law and based on past life choices, where those citizens have exercised free movement rights by the specified date.
(The bolds are mine to highlight elements which have cropped up in this thread.)



True. But there's a difference between informed speculation and the idle chatter we often encounter. (I happily and respectfully acknowledge that you are very far from party to the latter.)

I understand all that. What threw me was your reference to "90 days" which is the Schengen visitor non EU citizen visa restriction. This is not connected with the freedom of movement issues in the divorce agreement - as if this is going to automatically apply to UK citizens after exit. This has still to be discussed and I have seen no concrete proposal that the current non EU citizen rules will apply to UK citizens, although of course it is one of the possibilities.

 

[macd]

Right, that explains all. I mentioned it (as many other threads have done) as clearly the worst-case scenario against which liveaboards might weigh their options. But even if UK nationals are allowed twice 90 days, that won't permit them to trigger de facto residence.

Obviously the thread's initial question was narrower than that, but in my view it's remiss to consider residency thresholds without any reference to major changes which may occur in only a little over 12 months, even if we cannot be sure what they may be.

 

[jimbaerselman]

No. There are no restrictions nor conditions attached to a boat owned by an EU resident being kept in Spain. It is governed by the rules of the flag state, so no need to meet any Spanish requirements. This applies even if the boat is owned by a non Spanish EU citizen who is resident in Spain.

Here's the quote from the EU directive on MoT (means of Transport) temporarily imported. Spain and Portugal have each implemented this directive, but directed that it should apply to any 6 months in the tax year (which is a calendar year).

Temporary importation of certain means of transport for private use

Where a private vehicle, caravan, pleasure boat, private aircraft, tricycle or bicycle is imported temporarily, the item imported shall be exempt from the taxes specified in Article 1 for a period, continuous or otherwise, of not more than six months in any 12 months, provided that: (a) the individual importing such goods: (aa) has his normal residence in a Member State other than the Member State of temporary importation;

(bb) employs the means of transport in question for his private use;​

There were several prosecutions against overstaying craft. In early prosecutions, a VAT payment was demanded together with a fine. This was challenged as in-appropriate. A re-registration tax (matriculation tax) was then introduced and re-registration was made compulsory. This also was challenged. What remains is a pollution tax fine, levied on boats which do not report their over-stay. Those which do report an overstay within 30 days of the event may choose either to be re-registered, or to meet all the local rules and regulations, but meanwhile keep original flag.

 

[RupertW]

Here's the quote from the EU directive on MoT (means of Transport) temporarily imported. Spain and Portugal have each implemented this directive, but directed that it should apply to any 6 months in the tax year (which is a calendar year).

Temporary importation of certain means of transport for private use

Where a private vehicle, caravan, pleasure boat, private aircraft, tricycle or bicycle is imported temporarily, the item imported shall be exempt from the taxes specified in Article 1 for a period, continuous or otherwise, of not more than six months in any 12 months, provided that: (a) the individual importing such goods: (aa) has his normal residence in a Member State other than the Member State of temporary importation;

(bb) employs the means of transport in question for his private use;​

There were several prosecutions against overstaying craft. In early prosecutions, a VAT payment was demanded together with a fine. This was challenged as in-appropriate. A re-registration tax (matriculation tax) was then introduced and re-registration was made compulsory. This also was challenged. What remains is a pollution tax fine, levied on boats which do not report their over-stay. Those which do report an overstay within 30 days of the event may choose either to be re-registered, or to meet all the local rules and regulations, but meanwhile keep original flag.

Interesting - does that that mean that keeping a UK boat in a Spanish marina for a year will mean that it has to be reported after 6 months, even if mostly not in use by UK based owner?

 

[Carmel2]

Interesting - does that that mean that keeping a UK boat in a Spanish marina for a year will mean that it has to be reported after 6 months, even if mostly not in use by UK based owner?

Not as I understand it, its about your time not the boats.

 

[jaba]

There were several prosecutions against overstaying craft. In early prosecutions, a VAT payment was demanded together with a fine. This was challenged as in-appropriate. A re-registration tax (matriculation tax) was then introduced and re-registration was made compulsory. This also was challenged. What remains is a pollution tax fine, levied on boats which do not report their over-stay. Those which do report an overstay within 30 days of the event may choose either to be re-registered, or to meet all the local rules and regulations, but meanwhile keep original flag.

If I understand correctly, then, if you are a non resident EU citizen you have to report & "import" an EU flagged boat after 6 months in a Spanish marina. BUT if you are a non-EU citizen with a non EU flagged boat, you can park the boat for up to 18 months without problems... ????

 

[lindsay]

This thread is getting excruciatingly complicated. Surely the ideal status of a liveaboard yachtsperson in the Mediterranean is that of TOURIST.

Governments love them. Local authorities love them. Cafes, restaurants, hotels love them and other local businesses even more so. Last year I was in a queue at a marina office next to a steward from a large mobo whose bill for flowers per year was more than the value of my boat.

We need to monitor what is required to stay a "tourist"and meet the conditions, being aware, based on ACTUAL EXPERIENCE NOT ON SPECULATION OR WHAT IFS OR I HEARD OF SOMEONE what might happen if we do not.

It will certainly not be black or white but various shades of grey. Very uncomfortable for northern europeans, including UK citizens.

Surely a challenge worthy of the highly developed and sensitive brain of a run of the mill yottie liveaboard?

 

[GrahamM376]

Portugal doesn't enforce the rules. We've had the boat here for 10 years, I have had fiscal no. (tax no,) for all that time and have permanent residence (my wife is a citizen) and we also now have property here. Never had any questions about the boat.

 

[AndersG]

This thread is getting excruciatingly complicated. Surely the ideal status of a liveaboard yachtsperson in the Mediterranean is that of TOURIST.

Governments love them. Local authorities love them. Cafes, restaurants, hotels love them and other local businesses even more so. Last year I was in a queue at a marina office next to a steward from a large mobo whose bill for flowers per year was more than the value of my boat.

We need to monitor what is required to stay a "tourist"and meet the conditions, being aware, based on ACTUAL EXPERIENCE NOT ON SPECULATION OR WHAT IFS OR I HEARD OF SOMEONE what might happen if we do not.

It will certainly not be black or white but various shades of grey. Very uncomfortable for northern europeans, including UK citizens.

Surely a challenge worthy of the highly developed and sensitive brain of a run of the mill yottie liveaboard?

Stay less than 183 days a year in any one country and the taxman will almost always consider you a non resident.
Stay more than 182 days in a calendar year and the taxman will almost always say you are a resident as far as taxes are concerned.
Enforcement is almost non existent for yachties and many others.

 

[nortada]

This thread is getting excruciatingly complicated. Surely the ideal status of a liveaboard yachtsperson in the Mediterranean is that of TOURIST.

Governments love them. Local authorities love them. Cafes, restaurants, hotels love them and other local businesses even more so. Last year I was in a queue at a marina office next to a steward from a large mobo whose bill for flowers per year was more than the value of my boat.

We need to monitor what is required to stay a "tourist"and meet the conditions, being aware, based on ACTUAL EXPERIENCE NOT ON SPECULATION OR WHAT IFS OR I HEARD OF SOMEONE what might happen if we do not.

It will certainly not be black or white but various shades of grey. Very uncomfortable for northern europeans, including UK citizens.

Surely a challenge worthy of the highly developed and sensitive brain of a run of the mill yottie liveaboard?

Like the idea of being a WATER BORNE Tourist; far more classy than a Boat Gypo! :encouragement:

 

[lindsay]

One of the proposals by EU sources in the immediate aftermath of the infamous Brexit vote was to create a tourist visa costing a few hundred euros that would confer visiting rights as a tourist for a year for UK citizens. I liked the idea then. Even more now, but it seems to have got lost in the excitement. Imagine owning a piece of paper that would allow you to go anywhere in eu waters for a year on your boat without restrictions, questions or paperwork. Too good to be true?7