Any issues for Liveaboards based in Spain

[macd]

One of the proposals by EU sources in the immediate aftermath of the infamous Brexit vote was to create a tourist visa costing a few hundred euros that would confer visiting rights as a tourist for a year for UK citizens. I liked the idea then. Even more now, but it seems to have got lost in the excitement. Imagine owning a piece of paper that would allow you to go anywhere in eu waters for a year on your boat without restrictions, questions or paperwork. Too good to be true?7

I didn't come across any reference to that, Lindsay, but your not having heard any more about it probably doesn't mean very much either way. All that's been agreed (and to a large extent, discussed) so far is the terms of 'divorce', which did not include issues of tourism. Everything else is yet to go through the mangle.

 

[jimbaerselman]

As said above, boats aren't a problem but be prepared for a car to be clamped and required to be put on Spanish plates if seen in the same area for long periods. Enforcement (or not) varies from area to area.

Boats were a brief problem in Portugal. There was a period during which UK boats arriving and staying longer than 180 days were then required to "import" them. Importing, among other things, required proof that VAT had been paid. And the local customs were aware that UK registration is no guarantee that VAT was properly accounted for. So owners had to produce import documents proving that vessels had free circulation within the customs zone. HMRC were most helpful, and arranged the issue of a "T2L" page - as long as you proved to them you were VAT paid.

I don't know whether Portugal still asks for the T2L.

But as you say, this customs enforcement for boats, in both Spain and Portugal, depends which region you're in - and whether or not (in Spain) you're also a tax resident!

 

[Tranona]

I didn't come across any reference to that, Lindsay, but your not having heard any more about it probably doesn't mean very much either way. All that's been agreed (and to a large extent, discussed) so far is the terms of 'divorce', which did not include issues of tourism. Everything else is yet to go through the mangle.

There were all sorts of things bandied around, but most not from the commission, rather from individual politicians or groups trying to influence negotiation positions. remember the proposal that the EU should offer a free standing form of citizenship to UK nationals? The tourist visa idea was similar, but it is still there with a suggestion from the UK side that it would take the form of an electronic visa similar to the US system.

No doubt this will come up again when the migration (as opposed to visitor) terms have been agreed. Eventually , several layers down what nordata calls Boat Gypos will come on the radar with nobody strong enough to represent them so will either be ignored or be subject to rules that civil servants make up so they can move on.

 

[GrahamM376]

Boats were a brief problem in Portugal. There was a period during which UK boats arriving and staying longer than 180 days were then required to "import" them. Importing, among other things, required proof that VAT had been paid. And the local customs were aware that UK registration is no guarantee that VAT was properly accounted for. So owners had to produce import documents proving that vessels had free circulation within the customs zone. HMRC were most helpful, and arranged the issue of a "T2L" page - as long as you proved to them you were VAT paid.

I don't know whether Portugal still asks for the T2L.

But as you say, this customs enforcement for boats, in both Spain and Portugal, depends which region you're in - and whether or not (in Spain) you're also a tax resident!

To the best of my knowledge, having been on the Algarve for 10 years, that isn't correct. There were 2 problems in Portugal. The main one was that Policia Maritima and Navy were threatening visitors with fines for lack of safety equipment which all Portuguese boats must carry. The RYA stepped in and obtained agreement that boats in country for less than 6 months equip to their flag state's regulations but those over 6 months have to comply with Portuguese regs. AFAIK, no-one was required to import the boat.

The second problem with the T2L was with a tiny minority of visitors who I suspect had expensive newish boats which were possibly suspected of not being VAT paid, for export.

Virtually all the reported problems originate in Lagos where they seem to have a couple of over zealous officials - maybe Lagos is the first post after training school? Also, it is alleged there are a couple of marina based barrak-room lawyers who stir things up by running to police and customs asking what the law says, instead of just keeping their heads down.

Maybe Nortada, who is Lagos based, has more info but I personally have only once witnessed a safety gear inspection, that was on a Portuguese dive rib when we were stopped by police when coming back into the Ria Formosa.

 

[RobbieW]

.... Imagine owning a piece of paper that would allow you to go anywhere in eu waters for a year on your boat without restrictions, questions or paperwork. Too good to be true?7

Got one at the moment thanks & have had for many years

 

[nortada]

To the best of my knowledge, having been on the Algarve for 10 years, that isn't correct. There were 2 problems in Portugal. The main one was that Policia Maritima and Navy were threatening visitors with fines for lack of safety equipment which all Portuguese boats must carry. The RYA stepped in and obtained agreement that boats in country for less than 6 months equip to their flag state's regulations but those over 6 months have to comply with Portuguese regs. AFAIK, no-one was required to import the boat.

The second problem with the T2L was with a tiny minority of visitors who I suspect had expensive newish boats which were possibly suspected of not being VAT paid, for export.

Virtually all the reported problems originate in Lagos where they seem to have a couple of over zealous officials - maybe Lagos is the first post after training school? Also, it is alleged there are a couple of marina based barrak-room lawyers who stir things up by running to police and customs asking what the law says, instead of just keeping their heads down.

Maybe Nortada, who is Lagos based, has more info but I personally have only once witnessed a safety gear inspection, that was on a Portuguese dive rib when we were stopped by police when coming back into the Ria Formosa.

Everything written above is correct and now ‘the barrack room lawyers’ have departed all is back to normal.

So far as I know no requests for T2L for over a year. That said, many including us have now got a T2L, supplied by HMRC by return of post, so no real hassle.

The one thing you could be asked for is a receipt for that annual light dues. At €2 per annum from the local PM office it is unlikely to break the bank

 

[GrahamM376]

The one thing you could be asked for is a receipt for that annual light dues. At €2 per annum from the local PM office it is unlikely to break the bank

I keep forgetting to mention that but they screwed me for €11.50 for 12 months in January 2017, now out of date. Do you pay the circulation tax? We've never bothered on the grounds that being on a mooring, the Finances don't know the boat is here. G.

 

[nortada]

€12 for light dues? Amount seems to vary depending where you go to pay it. Costing just over €60 pa for a vessel with a 40HP engine again it is unlikely to break the bank.

That said I am unaware of anybody ever been pursued to pay.

Moreover if you leave Portuguese Waters during the first week in July, the boat never becomes liable for this tax.

 

[IanCalling]

How would the Spanish know you’ve spent over 183 days in the country?
You are not required to clear in or out, so in theory no records exist. The calendar is reset on 1st Jan each year, so if you’re a cruising yachtsman you’re very unlikely to have a problem.

When you check in with customs and then when you check out

 

[macd]

When you check in with customs and then when you check out

The customs check-ins involved when arriving from another Schengen country are usually the same as you might experience when driving from Victoria to NSW.

 

[RobbieW]

The customs check-ins involved when arriving from another Schengen country are usually the same as you might experience when driving from Victoria to NSW.

However an Australian travelling around europe is strongly advised to get entry and exit stamps from the Schengen area to fully utilise thier 90 days in 180

 

[KellysEye]

One thought is we spent time in both Portugal and Spain but never more than 183 days. What would the position be if you spent most of your time at anchor and only popped into a marina for fuel and provisions occasionally?

 

[GrahamM376]

Passports used to be stamped at port of entry which is still the case with non EU visitors so, time starts from that date.

 

[IanCalling]

However an Australian travelling around europe is strongly advised to get entry and exit stamps from the Schengen area to fully utilise thier 90 days in 180

I suppose it amounts to keeping good logs although the days of physically stamping passports might be numbered. Nowadays, with map plotters and AIS, is taking a sceenshot, including lat/long, wherever you anchor, stop, leave a good idea?

 

[RobbieW]

I suppose it amounts to keeping good logs although the days of physically stamping passports might be numbered. Nowadays, with map plotters and AIS, is taking a sceenshot, including lat/long, wherever you anchor, stop, leave a good idea?

Depends how good your command of the language for the country whose immigration official youre trying to persuade is I'd agree that actual stamping will decline but it would still be a requirement to enter or leave a country through a defined port of entry where your passport can be scanned

 

[lindsay]

If you anchor within the 12 mile range you are still in the country, I believe?