Another VAT Question

[Tranona]

Honestly the boats I'm looking at are older. For my price bracket I'm looking more at boats that in the 1990-2005 range, which are private owned. I want to avoid ex-charter boats unless they've been really well looked after. Given the age range, not many charter boats seem to pop up when looking around.

As for the visa situation, it does seem I'll have to bite the bullet and get a residency visa. I was hoping to really get the first 12 months sorted along with any upgrades/updates made to the boat here in the UK then deal with visa's etc. But the more I look around it seems to make more sense to dive straight in and just get neck deep on being a liveaboard.

The concern for me is down to whether I'll acclimate to living on a boat. Throwing on moving country, loosing support network etc on top, it becomes a much bigger ask of oneself to make the plunge.

Then you won't find non VAT paid boats of that type. Privately owned boats are VAT paid, either in the UK or EU. If you buy one in the UK you can take it to the EU for 18 months under the temporary admission rules. If you buy in the EU you can keep it there indefinitely but if you bring it to the UK you have to pay VAT.

If you try to get residency in an EU state this does not allow you to move freely around the EU or work in other EU states. Getting residency is not straight forward and requirements vary from state to state..

Turn the clock back pre 2016 what you are planning to do was both feasible and common - literally thousands of UK citizens did it. However it was clear then that those days were coming to an end and they ended on 31/12 2020 when the UK left the EU.

Even living aboard in the UK has become increasingly difficult with more and more marinas enforcing their no residential rules. So think very carefully before you make any serious plans or commitments to buy a boat.

 

[ColourfulOwl]

If you try to get residency in an EU state this does not allow you to move freely around the EU or work in other EU states. Getting residency is not straight forward and requirements vary from state to state..

Just to confirm, if I was to get a non-lucrative residency visa for Spain, that wouldn't impact my 90/180 rights for other countries right? IE I would still be able to go a visit Greece for 90 days and return back to Spain, wait 90 days in Spain, and then travel to say Italy.

Yea I know. Gotta love Brexit It is what it is. I'm not expecting this to be easy. It's going to be a lot of forward planning and for-thinking on everything.

Honestly It why I've most been looking at UK boats, but the much smaller market and increased cost does make me wonder what else is out there. It's why I started this thread to see if it was even really realistic or feasible, financially, to bring a boat back from the EU.

 

[sailaboutvic]

My personally view is why buy a boat to just live on and work from surely it's cheaper and more comfortable to just rent an apartment in the sun or buy one that will probably cost less then a good quality boat.

The word liveaboard give me the shake and when anyone suggest I'm a liveaboard I quickly put them right and tell them I'm a cruiser.
Over my years of cruising I meet many who have uprooted their family life's to live on a boat in a marina children being teaches on board and only contract is with other adult, parents suggesting it good for the child, good for who I say.
I know when my two where small they couldn't wait to get in a marina and just ship to find other kids and that was only over a few weeks holiday.
Any way putting all that to one side as nothing I say will change anyone mind
If their dream is to live on a boat.

To answer #22
residence in one country don't not take away you right to stay in another EU country for 90/180 days , so you could go back and fro,
BUT some countries insist that to get residence you have to spend a min of 181 days living in that country, I guess the reason for this is so you become a tax resident in that country.

We not given another info on your personal circumstances other then you want a boat to live in the sun and work on ,
And believe me when I say we seen hundreds of these posting over the years here that are never heard of again.
But just to say my partner was a free Lance translater ( books and documents) and her plain was in the beginning to work while cruising, it became impossible in the end she decided to give up her work.
There one person who did post here who I know very well who's work is IT problem solving for high profile company , they did manage to sails for a couple of months a years but even then during tho months weeks are spend in a marina while he works now I understand they moved back on land in Portugal.
To cruise one country/Eupore or the world while living on board is just a dream come true for us and many like us for others it's becomes a night mare very quickly.
I wish you luck on your plains but think very carefully before investing what could be quite a lot of money to buy a boat to work and live on .

 

[Tranona]

Just to confirm, if I was to get a non-lucrative residency visa for Spain, that wouldn't impact my 90/180 rights for other countries right? IE I would still be able to go a visit Greece for 90 days and return back to Spain, wait 90 days in Spain, and then travel to say Italy.

Yea I know. Gotta love Brexit It is what it is. I'm not expecting this to be easy. It's going to be a lot of forward planning and for-thinking on everything.

Honestly It why I've most been looking at UK boats, but the much smaller market and increased cost does make me wonder what else is out there. It's why I started this thread to see if it was even really realistic or feasible, financially, to bring a boat back from the EU.

If you are going to live in Spain then buy a boat in Spain. However you should check that you can get residency and live and work from your boat - as Vic says working on a boat is not easy and is expensive staying in a marina. Better to buy or rent an apartment.

Almost certainly not sensible to buy a boat in Europe, bring it in to the UK and then take it back. Not only will you pay VAT but from 2023 you will need to get it certified which will be expensive, difficult (or even impossible) for an old boat. If you buy a boat in the UK and become resident in Spain the boat will be subject to VAT and taxes when you get to Spain.

You would still get your 90 days and you can maximise this by checking in and out of each state so your time at sea does not count. A summer trip to Greece and back would be feasible for example.

 

[westernman]

If you buy a boat in the UK and become resident in Spain the boat will be subject to VAT and taxes when you get to Spain.

Not necessarily.

If you move to an EU country to become resident you can normally bring your cars and boats with you without having to pay any import duties or VAT.
You have to have owned the car/boat for at least 6 months (for France - the length of time may be different in different countries) before your move and you must keep it for at least 6 months after your move.

 

[Graham376]

Have you looked at costs? Insurance, we pay £500 p.a, Winter liftout into yard for 6 weeks DIY maintenance €300 per month here plus €300 for lifts and power wash. Then of course you have ongoing maintenance costs. Moving around means you will be paying mostly day rates which here in the Algarve for instance in high season is close to €50/night for a 12m boat. Spain is a bit cheaper. It all adds up, particularly if marina dweller.

 

[Tranona]

Not necessarily.

If you move to an EU country to become resident you can normally bring your cars and boats with you without having to pay any import duties or VAT.
You have to have owned the car/boat for at least 6 months (for France - the length of time may be different in different countries) before your move and you must keep it for at least 6 months after your move.

Yes, that is the returning residents relief, but you have to apply for it. In Spain there is also a 12% matriculation tax on assets, which can be avoided or reduced if declared on entry. Presumably the boat becomes EU VAT paid, although I have never seen anything on this and to retain UK VAT paid status it must return to the UK in the same ownership.

 

[ColourfulOwl]

Better to buy or rent an apartment.

Honestly, I have little to no interest in buying property. The idea just doesn't sit with me. I'll buy some property when I get to retirement age or am no long able to travel. And that's a good 40+ years away for myself (I'm 27). I spent some time backpacking across Asia and Australia a few years back and fell in love with the nomadic lifestyle, but had to come back to the UK for family reasons and to settle some financial stuff. I'm now in a situation where I'm financially clear (no debts or payment requirements) and have a rather decently paying fully remote job. Not the same job I had when backpacking, but in the same vein with a different company. The idea of going and getting a mortgage and spending the next 15-20 years working to pay it off, for a property just doesn't interest me. I'd rather spend my next 20 years circumnavigating and seeing everything I can, that aren't the same 4 brick walls. Also, kids aren't in my life plan. So having property in my name when I eventually do drop it is going to do what... ?

Have you looked at costs? Insurance, we pay £500 p.a, Winter liftout into yard for 6 weeks DIY maintenance €300 per month here plus €300 for lifts and power wash. Then of course you have ongoing maintenance costs. Moving around means you will be paying mostly day rates which here in the Algarve for instance in high season is close to €50/night for a 12m boat. Spain is a bit cheaper. It all adds up, particularly if marina dweller.

Running costs are something I'm still exploring. But I am looking for a boat in that the 11-13m size. Marina fees from a lot of the different marina's I've looked at here in the UK aren't actually that bad (cheaper that what you pay for an apartment of a similar size in a lot of places ?). I've currently got budget about £1,500 per month for running costs, IE annual anti-fouling, marina fee's, pump outs, fuel, visa's etc etc.

After the first 12-18 months, I wouldn't intend on spending more then a week a month in a marina and instead spending most time at anchorage. The reason for getting a slightly older boat is to spend a hefty chunk doing lots of upgrades and alterations to it to make it a comfortable long term live aboard.

I'm looking to spend in the region of £45k to £60K on the boat, and another £20k-£30k on upgrades. I'm sure there will be people that outcry and just say "spend £80k on the boat", but there are quite a few hard requirements I have when it comes to turning a cruiser into something I can make a home for me. There are a couple of 1998 Beneteau Oceanis 36CC's here in the UK that look like really solid foundations for me and fit within my price range. I've booked in to go view one which isn't far from where I live.

The reality of it is though having spoken with everyone here, I'm going to be looking at something in the UK market. I just feel more comfortable having something here that can be put on an annual berth, where I can get used to spending a lot of time on the boat and getting comfortable with it, but also have a home base over the first year or so to do all of that upgrades that I want to do.

 

[Star-Lord]

Honestly, I have little to no interest in buying property. The idea just doesn't sit with me. I'll buy some property when I get to retirement age or am no long able to travel. And that's a good 40+ years away for myself (I'm 27). I spent some time backpacking across Asia and Australia a few years back and fell in love with the nomadic lifestyle, but had to come back to the UK for family reasons and to settle some financial stuff. I'm now in a situation where I'm financially clear (no debts or payment requirements) and have a rather decently paying fully remote job. Not the same job I had when backpacking, but in the same vein with a different company. The idea of going and getting a mortgage and spending the next 15-20 years working to pay it off, for a property just doesn't interest me. I'd rather spend my next 20 years circumnavigating and seeing everything I can, that aren't the same 4 brick walls. Also, kids aren't in my life plan. So having property in my name when I eventually do drop it is going to do what... ?




Running costs are something I'm still exploring. But I am looking for a boat in that the 11-13m size. Marina fees from a lot of the different marina's I've looked at here in the UK aren't actually that bad (cheaper that what you pay for an apartment of a similar size in a lot of places ?). I've currently got budget about £1,500 per month for running costs, IE annual anti-fouling, marina fee's, pump outs, fuel, visa's etc etc.

After the first 12-18 months, I wouldn't intend on spending more then a week a month in a marina and instead spending most time at anchorage. The reason for getting a slightly older boat is to spend a hefty chunk doing lots of upgrades and alterations to it to make it a comfortable long term live aboard.

I'm looking to spend in the region of £45k to £60K on the boat, and another £20k-£30k on upgrades. I'm sure there will be people that outcry and just say "spend £80k on the boat", but there are quite a few hard requirements I have when it comes to turning a cruiser into something I can make a home for me. There are a couple of 1998 Beneteau Oceanis 36CC's here in the UK that look like really solid foundations for me and fit within my price range. I've booked in to go view one which isn't far from where I live.

The reality of it is though having spoken with everyone here, I'm going to be looking at something in the UK market. I just feel more comfortable having something here that can be put on an annual berth, where I can get used to spending a lot of time on the boat and getting comfortable with it, but also have a home base over the first year or so to do all of that upgrades that I want to do.

Good plan. In the Med and other places you pay same marina fee 11m boat as 12m - usually 10-12 is the same price bracket and Greece I hear charge more juice for boats over 12m. I think 35 foot is sweet spot with a couple of cabins (I have this) But... I do think of one day buying a 40 foot (12m) boat with 3 cabins and two heads... Solar is King... Also a 15hp (min 9.9hp) outboard and Rib on davits will make your life a lot more fun if spending time at anchor. And it will keep you and the laundry and shopping dry. I tried 2.5hp then 3.5hp but finally got a Yamaha 9.9hp and it was a life changer LOL. Always starts and I always run it dry at the end of the day. Look forward to seeing you post a thread about which anchor is best and what chain stopper to get and how long a snubber should be ?

 

[Graham376]

Good plan. In the Med and other places you pay same marina fee 11m boat as 12m - usually 10-12 is the same price bracket and Greece I hear charge more juice for boats over 12m.

Same elsewhere, there can be a 20%-30% jump in marina cost between 10m-12m and 12.1m. A problem we've occasionally had in Spain is where charged for berth size, not boat size. They say they don't have correct size available for the boat so have to pay for larger one

 

[SailingDog]

Yea I had seen a thread looking at that exact topic before. I'd be looking to get something a long the lines of a the non-lucrative long stay visa for Spain. Spain seems like the best middle ground country for me when it comes to moving the boat from the med to the UK and vice versa. After the first 18 months or so I intent to head south to the Canaries then Cape Verde before going west to the Caribbean. That's the plan anyway. But who knows ☺

Why not have a few long trips to Europe to get to know the boat and what changes you really can't do without, period back in UK for upgrades then head west.

 

[Tranona]

Running costs are something I'm still exploring. But I am looking for a boat in that the 11-13m size. Marina fees from a lot of the different marina's I've looked at here in the UK aren't actually that bad (cheaper that what you pay for an apartment of a similar size in a lot of places ?). I've currently got budget about £1,500 per month for running costs, IE annual anti-fouling, marina fee's, pump outs, fuel, visa's etc etc.

After the first 12-18 months, I wouldn't intend on spending more then a week a month in a marina and instead spending most time at anchorage. The reason for getting a slightly older boat is to spend a hefty chunk doing lots of upgrades and alterations to it to make it a comfortable long term live aboard.

I'm looking to spend in the region of £45k to £60K on the boat, and another £20k-£30k on upgrades. I'm sure there will be people that outcry and just say "spend £80k on the boat", but there are quite a few hard requirements I have when it comes to turning a cruiser into something I can make a home for me. There are a couple of 1998 Beneteau Oceanis 36CC's here in the UK that look like really solid foundations for me and fit within my price range. I've booked in to go view one which isn't far from where I live.

The reality of it is though having spoken with everyone here, I'm going to be looking at something in the UK market. I just feel more comfortable having something here that can be put on an annual berth, where I can get used to spending a lot of time on the boat and getting comfortable with it, but also have a home base over the first year or so to do all of that upgrades that I want to do.

Nothing basically wrong with your plan, but with a few caveats. First the boat. Upgrading a well worn boat is far more complex and expensive than you can ever imagine. Remember a 12m boat now will cost a minimum of £200k for a basic boat, and everything that you buy, or work that you have done is related to that cost base, not the £50k or so you pay for a 20-30 year old boat. I am doing just that now, launching part finished on Friday and I can tell you that £30k does not go very far, even doing lots of the work myself. Second, be wary of making major changes to make it a more "comfortable" liveaboard. While older style boats lend themselves to being cut about, modern production boats like the Beneteau do not. Buy the very best boat you can for your money with good sails, engine electronics, domestic systems and furnishings then get sailing. You will likely find that as a single person or even a couple, a 11/12m boat can be very comfortable to live on for the sort of use you intend. Once you gain experience of actually doing it, then think of improvements. My wife and I lived on our 37 for extended periods cruising around and the only real mod was to convert one aft cabin to storage in a way that could go back to standard when we sold it.

If you start in the UK, it is common to spend the summer (May-September) cruising and anchoring most of the time with odd nights in marinas, then take a winter contract for a marina berth. That way you get lots of experience and avoid being seen as a full time liveaboard. You can then try a similar thing in Europe as even within the constraints you can get a lot of sailing in. However although you can leave your boat you will have to return to the UK. France does, however have an extended tourist visa which allows longer stays with not too onerous conditions.

Just some suggestions gleaned from years of doing such things and particularly seeing what others do.

 

[Star-Lord]

A lot to be said for buying a 10m boat if you are single. Enough space for a friend also. Costs for berths and everything will be significantly less. Especially if 'doing up'. Also the other option is to buy as new as possible. For 70k you will find boats with most of what you want. So as new as possibly under 12m or a do upper at 10m or under.

 

[sailaboutvic]

A lot to be said for buying a 10m boat if you are single. Enough space for a friend also. Costs for berths and everything will be significantly less. Especially if 'doing up'. Also the other option is to buy as new as possible. For 70k you will find boats with most of what you want. So as new as possibly under 12m or a do upper at 10m or under.

What would you know about a 10mt boat?
Your is 15mts three decks and a hellport on top .

 

[Star-Lord]

What would you know about a 10mt boat?
Your is 15mts three decks and a hellport on top .

I like Albin Vega! Could quite happily downsize. Just need to find a storage unit for all the bags.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I like Albin Vega! Could quite happily downsize. Just need to find a storage unit for all the bags.

Funny we down size not that we plain too but circumstances tookus there , 42 to 36and it's not too bad

 

[Ningaloo]

Yea I had seen a thread looking at that exact topic before. I'd be looking to get something a long the lines of a the non-lucrative long stay visa for Spain. Spain seems like the best middle ground country for me when it comes to moving the boat from the med to the UK and vice versa. After the first 18 months or so I intent to head south to the Canaries then Cape Verde before going west to the Caribbean. That's the plan anyway. But who knows ☺

Not only does Brexit limit UK passport holders to 90/180, it also prohibits them from working (even unpaid) without an appropriate visa, so your scheme is flawed.
I am not familiar with the "non-lucrative" visa you refer to but this sounds a lot like "non working".
And of course as soon as you are EU resident, you will be liable for EU VAT and other taxes. Spain has a 12% "wealth" tax on boats.
Some of the category D visas technically do not grant "residence" (rather they are a step towards it) but many tax offices have a different interpretation of "residence" so take good legal advice before making any commitments.

 

[Ningaloo]

Given all you have said, it seems you are primarily looking for a semi-permanent home outside UK. You like the nomadic lifestyle but Brexit has really made that impossible in Schengen.
I have personal experience of living and working on a boat in the EU since 2004, initially on Atlantic coast and later in Baltic, however I only did this during 5 months of the year and went elsewhere each (northern) winter. You will find most cruising/live-aboard boats take at least 6 months in a marina during the Med winter.

Personally I think you should return to Asia where you might find it easier to get a digital nomad visa. It is less expensive to live there and, outside the cyclone season, great cruising. Start with a rented room/apartment and then explore the possibilities of a boat.

As a single 27yo you can put up with significant discomfort but in a decade or two your needs and choices will be very different. If you can consolidate your work skills now while enjoying further travels this will put you in a great position for your later years...

 

[ColourfulOwl]

Not only does Brexit limit UK passport holders to 90/180, it also prohibits them from working (even unpaid) without an appropriate visa, so your scheme is flawed.
I am not familiar with the "non-lucrative" visa you refer to but this sounds a lot like "non working".
And of course as soon as you are EU resident, you will be liable for EU VAT and other taxes. Spain has a 12% "wealth" tax on boats.
Some of the category D visas technically do not grant "residence" (rather they are a step towards it) but many tax offices have a different interpretation of "residence" so take good legal advice before making any commitments.

The Spanish "non-lucrative residence visa" is basically a long stay visa but you cannot earn an income from Spain, but you can continue to work in your native country. The main requirement to get this visa is to prove you can financial sustain yourself whilst in the country for a long period of time. This could be in the form of savings or income taxable in another country (IE a job, rental income, pension etc etc). You need a minimum of 2,150€ per month of income, and an extra 535€ per month for each dependent you bring. In my case I cover that, even with how bad the GBP is doing ?

Spain has a double taxation treaty with the UK, which means all I have to do on my income is pay my standard tax in the UK. Nothing more even if I'm working from a boat, or apartment, in Spain. Not including moving of assets or taxes on assets. Not researched that enough to know what the stance is there.

As a single 27yo you can put up with significant discomfort but in a decade or two your needs and choices will be very different. If you can consolidate your work skills now while enjoying further travels this will put you in a great position for your later years...

Honestly ever since I visited Koh Tao I've always said I'd love to retire there and just teach people how to scuba dive. But honestly that's something for later on in life. There's a lot of planet I want to see, and being in the Med is only going to be a few years out of what will hopefully be decades of travelling. The med is right around the corner for me which is why It was always going to be first on the list to sail around. But that's after spending a year or so here in the UK. There's a lot in the UK that I'd love to see, and I can easily spend a year acclimating to living on a boat and travelling the shores in my home turf before moving further a field.

I love backpacking, but I missed certain creature comforts and having a home base to return to. Having a home which can move anywhere in the world with me, solves those problems for me It certainly won't be easy. Nor will be cheap, but honestly it's the thing I want to do. Try at the very least. And even if I end up hating it, all I've lost is a bit of cash in exchange for the experience. Hardly the end of the world.

 

[Star-Lord]

Croatia has a digital nomad visa for 12 months but I believe they want you to pay tax. If you are working on your boat 90days in Greece, 90 days in Croatia, 90 days in Italy and then 90 days in Turkey will circumnavigate Schengen and all tax problems. If / when Croatia joins Schengen the 90 days in Montenegro. Or 90 days in Tunisia 90 days in Shenghen and then back to Tunisia or 90 Days in Turkey 90 days in Schengen etc etc. Not very hard.