Another VAT conundrum ?

[Bobc]

Excellent, thank you.

That means I can never bring the boat back to the UK again. That's a bonus for me.

 

[Lightwave395]

Can I pose this question please?

What if the OP (who's boat was in the EU on 31/12/20 as hence has EU Vat status), wanted to hop across the channel to the UK with it for a week or two as part of a summer cruise.

He would have to call Yachtline, but would he have to RgR the boat, and even if so, when he goes back to the EU with it, he still has all the documents proving that he was in the EU on 31/12/20, so presumably any official who wanted to enquire about vat status would conclude that the boat was deemed EU vat paid.

Am I missing something, or is this a cute way of getting both EU and UK vat status on his boat?

That's the basis of my original question !

 

[Tranona]

TernVI and bobc. suggest you read this
www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-8-sailing-your-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk/notice-8-sailing-your-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk#temporarily-importing-a-vessel

and the links to the detailed rules. As you will see they require application to customs to get both RGR and TA and ongoing monitoring. to actually operate the rules as they are written (they are essentially the same in the EU) will require a wide ranging and sophisticated system. So far customs in the UK (and in most EU states) have been light touch because the number of movements of third country boats in and out of the EU and UK has been small.

 

[Bobc]

That's the basis of my original question !

I thought it might be. Looks like we can't take our boats back to the UK ever again. What a bummer. I guess that means next stop Caribbean then

 

[Tranona]

That's the basis of my original question !

There is a view by some that looked at from the EU perspective, your boat will have been outside the EU, but is entitled to RGR if returned in the time period. It is irrelevant that it has been in the UK and used RGR there, or indeed it it did not qualify for RGR, VAT had been paid.

The belief is so strong with some that it is claimed some MOBOs left the south coast for Cherbourg over the new year just to get the marina receipt, photo etc so that they can clam EU status and then return under RGR.

Time will tell whether this will work or indeed if it was of any practical value.

 

[Bobc]

I wonder what the panel's view would be if looking again at my post, but stating that the VAT was actually paid in the EU (Azores), not UK originally so the boat actually has an EU VAT certificate.

So it has a Portuguese VAT certificate along with proof that it was in the EU on 31/12/20

 

[Irish Rover]

I wonder what the panel's view would be if looking again at my post, but stating that the VAT was actually paid in the EU (Azores), not UK originally so the boat actually has an EU VAT certificate.

So it has a Portuguese VAT certificate along with proof that it was in the EU on 31/12/20

Currently it is EU VAT paid and has Union goods status.
It's UK status is a very different issue. Was it in UK under your ownership, when and was it you who "exported" it?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I wonder what the panel's view would be if looking again at my post, but stating that the VAT was actually paid in the EU (Azores), not UK originally so the boat actually has an EU VAT certificate.

So it has a Portuguese VAT certificate along with proof that it was in the EU on 31/12/20

As long as the VAT was paid in an EU member state before 31.12.2020 by its current owner then it is VAT paid.

The location on 31.12.2020 will determine if it is VAT paid in the UK or EU.

The idea to hop over to France for the 30.12.2020 to obtain EU VAT paid status, and then return to the UK and claim RGR might be a good one,

...... but the 3 year export clock will start running in the EU as soon as you return to the UK.

Regular hops backwards and forwards, with regular applications for RGR in both the EU and UK will be necessary to retain VAT paid status in both jurisdictions. The boat cannot change hands and cannot undergo a major refit or upgrade otherwise RGR is no longer possible.

No matter which jurisdiction you are in, a 3 year export clock will always be running in the other one - so you need to return and complete an RGR to stop it.

 

[Bobc]

Currently it is EU VAT paid and has Union goods status.
It's UK status is a very different issue. Was it in UK under your ownership, when and was it you who "exported" it?

It was in the UK from 2011-2020. It was me who imported it into the EU (and brought it to the UK), and me who exported it to France last year. I am the boat's original owner.

 

[Irish Rover]

It was in the UK from 2011-2020. It was me who imported it into the EU (and brought it to the UK), and me who exported it to France last year. I am the boat's original owner.

So you can return to the UK and regain UK VAT paid status under RGR.
I believe the only area of doubt is whether you could subsequently return to the EU and claim RGR in the EU. Many posters believe this will be the case. Some of us have doubts. Only time will tell and there may not even be a consistent view taken on this by all member states or even individual customs officials in the same country.

 

[Graham376]

I wonder what the panel's view would be if looking again at my post, but stating that the VAT was actually paid in the EU (Azores), not UK originally so the boat actually has an EU VAT certificate.

So it has a Portuguese VAT certificate along with proof that it was in the EU on 31/12/20

In your hypothetical case, if the VAT was not originally paid in the UK and it was not in the UK on 31/12, you would be liable for VAT if taking it to UK.

In reality, if the boat was UK based and VAT paid in the UK and you took it to the Azores in 2020, then you can take it back and claim RGR.

 

[Bobc]

As long as the VAT was paid in an EU member state before 31.12.2020 by its current owner then it is VAT paid.

The location on 31.12.2020 will determine if it is VAT paid in the UK or EU.

The idea to hop over to France for the 30.12.2020 to obtain EU VAT paid status, and then return to the UK and claim RGR might be a good one,

...... but the 3 year export clock will start running in the EU as soon as you return to the UK.

Regular hops backwards and forwards, with regular applications for RGR in both the EU and UK will be necessary to retain VAT paid status in both jurisdictions. The boat cannot change hands and cannot undergo a major refit or upgrade otherwise RGR is no longer possible.

No matter which jurisdiction you are in, a 3 year export clock will always be running in the other one - so you need to return and complete an RGR to stop it.

I guess my question is this:-

Assume I sail the boat back to the UK this summer for a couple of weeks. I do my RGR thing, so HMRC are happy.

I then take the boat back to France. I pitch-up in Cherbourg and nobody asks to see VAT proof. They just stamp my passport (which is what we expect to happen in reality).

I then sail the boat back around to it's home port in Brittany, having already cleared into the EU.

At some later date at some other port, someone asks about VAT status and asks to see documentation, to which I show then the Portuguese VAT certificate and the marina invoices showing that the boat was there on 31/12/20. Will they not just accept this (in reality).

I guess as I'm typing this, the answer is "are you feeling lucky". Getting caught might not be fun.

Definitely going West next then.

 

[Irish Rover]

In your hypothetical case, if the VAT was not originally paid in the UK and it was not in the UK on 31/12, you would be liable for VAT if taking it to UK.

I don't believe this is correct. Bobc is entitled to RGR in the UK based on the facts as outlined by him.

 

[Irish Rover]

I guess my question is this:-

Assume I sail the boat back to the UK this summer for a couple of weeks. I do my RGR thing, so HMRC are happy.

I then take the boat back to France. I pitch-up in Cherbourg and nobody asks to see VAT proof. They just stamp my passport (which is what we expect to happen in reality).

I then sail the boat back around to it's home port in Brittany, having already cleared into the EU.

At some later date at some other port, someone asks about VAT status and asks to see documentation, to which I show then the Portuguese VAT certificate and the marina invoices showing that the boat was there on 31/12/20. Will they not just accept this (in reality).

I guess as I'm typing this, the answer is "are you feeling lucky". Getting caught might not be fun.

Definitely going West next then.

I really don't think you have anything to worry about. Most posters on here believe you will have dual VAT status and (though I personally have doubts) there is nothing in writing to say otherwise. If you do arrive back in France and they tell you that VAT is due or it happens subsequently in Brittany I believe they will still give you a 30 day TA in order to allow you time to take the boat out of the EU.

 

[madabouttheboat]

I guess my question is this:-

Assume I sail the boat back to the UK this summer for a couple of weeks. I do my RGR thing, so HMRC are happy.

I then take the boat back to France. I pitch-up in Cherbourg and nobody asks to see VAT proof. They just stamp my passport (which is what we expect to happen in reality).

I then sail the boat back around to it's home port in Brittany, having already cleared into the EU.

At some later date at some other port, someone asks about VAT status and asks to see documentation, to which I show then the Portuguese VAT certificate and the marina invoices showing that the boat was there on 31/12/20. Will they not just accept this (in reality).

I guess as I'm typing this, the answer is "are you feeling lucky". Getting caught might not be fun.

Definitely going West next then.

I this case your boat would have 'perceived' VAT status in the EU and, to be fair, you would probably get away with it. It will have documentation to show its vat status in both the UK and the EU, as long as the documentation isn't all shown together in either place. In effect, you might be guilty of smuggling, but the chances of being caught would be very small. You would, of course, have to come back to the UK again within three years, otherwise you would lose UK VAT status.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I guess my question is this:-

Assume I sail the boat back to the UK this summer for a couple of weeks. I do my RGR thing, so HMRC are happy.

I then take the boat back to France. I pitch-up in Cherbourg and nobody asks to see VAT proof. They just stamp my passport (which is what we expect to happen in reality).

I then sail the boat back around to it's home port in Brittany, having already cleared into the EU.

At some later date at some other port, someone asks about VAT status and asks to see documentation, to which I show then the Portuguese VAT certificate and the marina invoices showing that the boat was there on 31/12/20. Will they not just accept this (in reality).

I guess as I'm typing this, the answer is "are you feeling lucky". Getting caught might not be fun.

Definitely going West next then.

I have not been to a port of entry in France, but the ones I have been to as a "foreign" private yacht, the procedure was as follows ....

Cross the 12Nm boundary into territorial waters of the country concerned, hoist your yellow flag and the courtesy flag of the country whose waters you have entered. Then head directly to the nearest port of entry. There you will be met by customs officials and police - they usually have a set of berths to process visiting boats (It's basically a border crossing for boats). I have arrived late at night on occasions and been met only by police - they process the passports and identities of persons on board - I just followed their instructions as to where to berth the boat, you can usually clear customs and sort out any cruising permits or other formalities the following work day.

The port of entry is where you will go through your schengen entry checks and it is also where you get Temporary Access for your boat to circulate in the jurisdiction of that country for 18 months without paying import duties or VAT.

I've done this multiple times in the Med and it takes a few hours at most depending on how busy they are and at what time you arrive.

It is in your interest to get the schengen stamp on arrival - you don't want to get caught in any country with no record of where or when you entered - and because you arrived by private boat, they will ask questions about its VAT and Duty status which you have to provide the paperwork for - similarly, questions will be asked about the contents of the boat to ensure you are complying with their border rules.

As a UK resident arriving in the EU, TA is just a formality and pretty painless. Arriving in the EU and reclaiming VAT paid status using RGR is a much more involved process - one I have never done.

 

[madabouttheboat]

If you do arrive back in France and they tell you that VAT is due or it happens subsequently in Brittany I believe they will still give you a 30 day TA in order to allow you time to take the boat out of the EU.

I guess you could go for the full 18 months under TA at that point. If based in Brittany, a trip to the CI's every 18 months would restart the clock.

 

[Irish Rover]

I guess you could go for the full 18 months under TA at that point. If based in Brittany, a trip to the CI's every 18 months would restart the clock.

Not if you're actually resident in the EU.

 

[TernVI]

I this case your boat would have 'perceived' VAT status in the EU and, to be fair, you would probably get away with it. It will have documentation to show its vat status in both the UK and the EU, as long as the documentation isn't all shown together in either place. In effect, you might be guilty of smuggling, but the chances of being caught would be very small. You would, of course, have to come back to the UK again within three years, otherwise you would lose UK VAT status.

I would not assume that UK and EU authorities won't talk to each other.
Neither would I assume that there's nobody in HMRC who would perceive claiming a few yotties' scalps to be within his remit.
Jusy sayin...

Also I would suggest thinking a little about the future.
Under 'ever closer union' what is the future of yacht registration, taxation and all that in the USofE?
What might happen now the pesky Brits aren't there to put the brakes on change?

 

[madabouttheboat]

Not if you're actually resident in the EU.

I've lost track. Is the person we are speaking about resident in the Uk or the EU?

If they are EU resident, could they claim UK RGR?