Another Rode Question

[Stemar]

Not looking for a fight, just help in crystallising vague ideas! As usual, the budget is non-existent, so changing the gypsy - if I can for a windlass from 1984 and getting metric chain doesn't appeal!
Jazzcat is a Catalac 8m. weighing in at around 5 tones in cruising mode. On board, I have a couple of original spec Danforth type anchors sized to fit the slot on the foredeck, one with about 10m of 3/8" chain, plus 30m of ~18mm laid rope, which feels like polyester, This is what was in the anchor locker.

In another locker was a similar anchor with 10mm of 5/16" chain, but no rope attached. Also in the locker is about 70m of ~18mm laid line that looks like polyprop, a good deal stiffer than the other line. The windlass has Gypsies for both sizes of chain which seem as though they may be able to grip the rope too.

OK, I know this is literally a how long is a piece of string question, but what length of rode do I need for regular anchoring around the Solent and occasionally further afield? We won't be sitting out any hurricanes, but may well find ourselves anchored in F6, possibly more if the forecast is wrong.

I'm happy with a mixed rode, but 40m feels on the short side - I wouldn't want to be in more than 10m of water in any sort of blow with that. Is it enough? How often am I going to want to anchor in deeper water in reality? I had enough rode for 20-odd metres on my previous boat, but don't remember how often, if ever, I anchored in more than 10m.

If I do need more, it seems I'm going to be adding rope rather than chain, as imperial chain seems hard to come by, and C links not as strong as one might wish

Option 1: Add the 70m of polyprop to the 5/16 chain. I could do the necessary splice, but the rope is quite stiff, so I wonder if it won't give me grief feeding through the windlass and into the anchor locker.
Option 2: Get a new length of line to splice to the 5/16 chain. My understanding is that octoplait would be worth the extra cost over laid line as it flakes better and is more supple. Is this correct? Where's the best place to get decent rope without paying over the odds?

Apologies for the ramble, many thanks in advance for your wisdom!

 

[Motor_Sailor]

I think the 3/8th chain should be given its P45 as well. It's about twice as heavy as 5/16.

Your 18mm rode is also bit chunky. A 5 ton boat could get away with 12 or 14mm at most. If you had your biggest Danforth on 10m of 5/16 chain and 50 (or 60) metres of octaplait, you would have more flexibility. Replicate the same sort of thing on your second anchor when resources allow.

Make sure you've got some good antichafe with you. Me and Capt Hornblower favour a well dubbined square of leather.

 

[Tranona]

You will not be able to splice 18mm into either size chain. 12mm for 5/16" and 14mm for 3/8", although 16mm can be done. In terms of length, I have 50m (all chain) but rarely use more than 30m. Either a mixed rode I would prefer 20/30, but 10/40 would be OK with 3/8" and 14mm. Never been a fan of octoplait and happy with 3 strand polyester.

 

[doug748]

It's great fun sorting out lockers on a new boat.

If your 30 m is polyester it's not so hot for anchoring. Attach it to something solid and try pulling at it, if it's nylon or polyprop you should be able to feel it give, if it floats it's not nylon
If polyester I would replace it with a bit longer length of nylon for everyday anchoring.

The 70m of polypropylene would be useful for towing, trailing in the Southern Ocean, anchoring in adverse conditions and suchlike so I would certainly keep it. A stainless thimble worked on the end is easily fixed to the second anchor chain as required.

 

[Stemar]

Thanks everyone, you've pretty much confirmed what I was thinking.

I do like octoplait because I find it feeds into the anchor locker better and is less inclined to get itself in a twist, so I think I'll go for 50m of 14mm and splice it to the 5/16 chain. If I ever need to anchor mid-Channel, I can add the 70m on the end, so a soft eye at the bitter end of the rode, so it can get through the hawse hole!

 

[thinwater]

I use 1/4-inch G43 on my PDQ, giving you an idea of just how ridiculous 3/8-inch was. 100 feet of that, backed by 1/2-inch 3-strand nylon. I sail shallow waters, so in your case I would up the chain to 150 feet. You'll want to splice the rope direct to the chain so that it will pass the windlass.

If you are changing the gypsy or windlass, go all-in and down size to a higher test, smaller chain. Your cat will thank you.

And polypropylene is all wrong for anchoring. Floating and stretch-strength characteristics.

 

[vyv_cox]

For my kedge, which of course is deployed by hand, not windlass, I have a Fortress FX16 with about 5 metres of 8 mm chain. 12 mm Anchorplait would have sufficient strength, or perhaps even 10 mm, but be very hard on the hands. I chose to have 16 mm and have not regretted it, especially when recovering it over the side of an inflatable dinghy.

I find that rope spliced to chain leads to corrosion, as the rope almost never dries. I chose to shackle my octoplait to the chain, via a plastic thimble, which gives me the option of using the rope for something else, e.g. towing.

 

[RJJ]

If your 30 m is polyester it's not so hot for anchoring.

I use polyester for anchoring. According to my internet browsing, polyester stretches something like 60-80% as well as nylon, has about the same breaking strain, and is less compromised by repeated immersion, stretching and UV exposure. Maybe the latter isn't a big issue for anchor rode, but the former seems like a critical requirement.

Rope (Rocna Knowledge Base)

Octo or 3 strand may be dictated by the gypsy. My chain/rope gypsy strongly recommends 3 strand and not Octo, and also strongly recommends a modified back splice (2 strands fed one way through the chain, 1 strand the other way).

 

[thinwater]

I use polyester for anchoring. According to my internet browsing, polyester stretches something like 60-80% as well as nylon, has about the same breaking strain, and is less compromised by repeated immersion, stretching and UV exposure. Maybe the latter isn't a big issue for anchor rode, but the former seems like a critical requirement.

Rope (Rocna Knowledge Base)

Octo or 3 strand may be dictated by the gypsy. My chain/rope gypsy strongly recommends 3 strand and not Octo, and also strongly recommends a modified back splice (2 strands fed one way through the chain, 1 strand the other way).

The knowledge base is funny, quoting doublebraid, which really is not used for anchoring cruising boats. Low stretch and does not work with combination gypsies. Polyester double braid is woven to be low stretch and is a poor general purpose rode for that reason. Of course, I have used it many times for testing anchor because the stretch does not insulate me from a creeping anchor.

The other limitation of polyester is that a minimum of 100' really needs to be deployed, in addition to whatever chain you have out. The problem is that the rope becomes the snubber, and polyester stretches about half that of nylon. There have been rope failures when people had on 10-20 feet of rope out and a good chop came up. But if the water is deep this is probably a non-issue.

 

[geem]

I use polyester for anchoring. According to my internet browsing, polyester stretches something like 60-80% as well as nylon, has about the same breaking strain, and is less compromised by repeated immersion, stretching and UV exposure. Maybe the latter isn't a big issue for anchor rode, but the former seems like a critical requirement.

Rope (Rocna Knowledge Base)

Octo or 3 strand may be dictated by the gypsy. My chain/rope gypsy strongly recommends 3 strand and not Octo, and also strongly recommends a modified back splice (2 strands fed one way through the chain, 1 strand the other way).

We use 60m of 10mm chain with 24mm diameter 12 strand nylon of 50m length spliced through the chain. It was difficult to splice it but doable. We can anchor in deep water which comes in useful occasionally. The 24mm 12strand was chosen for its abrasion resistance. We could wear half of it through on coral and still be ok

 

[Neeves]

Ideal would be:

Dump the 2 Danforth, if they are genuine sell them. They simply add weight and a Fortress will be as good, and lighter.

Replace one of them with a Fortress of the same physical size, it will fit in the recess provided with the yacht.

Dump all existing rodes. Replace with 6mm chain and 3 ply nylon or anchor plait. Find a way of storing the rope separate from the chain - the rope will simply accelerate chain corrosion. I cannot comment on how much rode you need - don't know the area - but you can anchor where monohulls fear to venture.

By the way 'C' links are fine. Do not be discouraged

The existing windlass might not be reliable and is not worth spending money on - its imperial (I think that's what you said) and Imperial is now made in America (but Rocna agents will sell CMP Titan and they make imperial sizes (but it would be a special order for the UK).

You will find retrieving 6mm chain easy by hand - so you don't need a windlass (I speak from experience - we use 6mm chain 70m). Ours is a high tensile - you will get away with G40 (I think you can source G40 6mm from Jimmy Green)

Make your choice of modern anchor, Rocna, Excel, Supreme, Spade and invest in one of the right size. You will value this recommendation in the years to come. Use this anchor as your primary, the Fortress is to allow you to anchor in a 'V' deployed from a dinghy.

So that's the ideal - how best you get there might be phased but don't spend money on something that is over engineered for your yacht. Don't spend money on trying to fit the purchase to a very dated windlass. Remove windlass, service it at home - sell it (along with the Danforth anchors)

If you keep your eyes open I believe you can buy most of the anchors, with time, from eBay.

You cat will reward you if you think light - most people over size ground tackle, completely unnecessarily - it just reduces yacht performance and adds not an iota to anchoring safety. Stand out from the sheep.

Jonathan

 

[Stemar]

I could probably get a 6mm gypsy, but that plus new chain plus new rope is starting to look expensive; if I swap my windlass as well - yikes! I do need a windlass now, I'm not as strong as I used to be and there are far too many other things to spend money on to "do it properly", so I'm going to have to do the best bodge I can

If I listen to my budget, I'd be anchoring to a rock with a blue polyprop rode, so I need to find a way to sort out something safe without giving the budget cardiac arrest. I think that, for now, it'll be the existing 5/16 chain spliced to 12mm anchorplait and my steel "Fortress". I'm aware of the issues with rusting at the splice, but I had a splice on Jissel's rode and only had to redo it once in 18 years, losing maybe 20cm of chain and rope in the process.

If that proves inadequate, I'll look to upgrade little by little - maybe talk to the kids about Christmas/birthday presents!

 

[Neeves]

I sympathise - but go into you nearest chandler - go find the drums of chain and take out the 6mm and 8mm (5/16th") and mull it over - and then tell me you could not handle 6mm chain! I confess that when I had to hand retrieve 8mm chain and a 15kg anchor it was possible but not something to which I looked forward with eager anticipation - but have done it since (same anchor) but 6mm chain - its like chalk and cheese. And since then I've discarded 15kgs anchors for aluminium 8kg anchors (easier still). But it was step by step. And we now have a more reliable, ignoring self installation errors, windlass. I deploy an anchor in a 'V' quite often from a dinghy, 10m 6mm and 40m of 3ply 12mm nylon (38' x7t cat) - its not difficult to retrieve (aluminium 8kg anchor)

I'd say you could (or should) be able, to live without the windlass (maybe whilst waiting for a suitable 6mm gypsy to come on the market (new gypsies cost a fortune - you will really shudder!). Most of the retrieval of a 50m rode, 10m of 6mm and the rest cordage can be conducted with a sheet winch - its not a bodge but another use for the kit you already have. Your windlass can handle rope (I think) just be ready to handle the chain portion buy hand - think outside the box.

I'm the first to admit that a windlass is a god send - its like finding that a car wash exists - but I still wash the car by hand!

But maybe I misjudge - you talk as if you are confident the kids will buy you a windlass for Xmas - or are you a lucky realist and envisage buying a windlass for the kids for Xmas. . I live in a different world.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[doug748]

I could probably get a 6mm gypsy, but that plus new chain plus new rope is starting to look expensive; if I swap my windlass as well - yikes! I do need a windlass now, I'm not as strong as I used to be and there are far too many other things to spend money on to "do it properly", so I'm going to have to do the best bodge I can

If I listen to my budget, I'd be anchoring to a rock with a blue polyprop rode, so I need to find a way to sort out something safe without giving the budget cardiac arrest. I think that, for now, it'll be the existing 5/16 chain spliced to 12mm anchorplait and my steel "Fortress". I'm aware of the issues with rusting at the splice, but I had a splice on Jissel's rode and only had to redo it once in 18 years, losing maybe 20cm of chain and rope in the process.

If that proves inadequate, I'll look to upgrade little by little - maybe talk to the kids about Christmas/birthday presents!

Absolutely, and your economy set up will perform to your requirements as well as anything, tho if you do buy new stuff I would go up to 16mm nylon ? .

BTW, at the outset you said you wanted to keep spending below 5k, how is the budget looking, are you over or under shooting your estimate?

.

 

[Stemar]

BTW, at the outset you said you wanted to keep spending below 5k, how is the budget looking, are you over or under shooting your estimate?

I haven't dared to work it out! I'm probably not far from 5K , now, having spent 2K on new rigging and furler, plus new instruments and solar kit. I've still got a plotter (probably a tablet) and VHF to get, plus who knows what death of a thousand bits and bobs, including a stakpak and lazyjacks (home brew). I just hope the sails are usable! I know they won't be great, but she's never going to be close winded, so I reckon if the wind's in the wrong direction, well, twin 20hp diesels should help, and downwind, the baggier the better!