Andiparos Kite Surfers - what the hell do I do?

[Bouba]

Go

Good luck with that. Kite surfing tourism brings in a lot of revenue for local business. Accommodation, eating out, lessons, equipment hire, bars, supermarkets. Way more per head than sailors

But a tourist causality is never good for business...still it’s also about covering your own backside

 

[geem]

But a tourist causality is never good for business...still it’s also about covering your own backside

It's kiting. Lots of casualties

 

[Irish Rover]

Being a kite surfer and a sailor I will give me thoughts. The competent kitesurfers will be very aware of your presence. They will carry on kite surfing and keep out of your way. The problem comes when a novice with zero ability gets in the way. As a sailor who doesn't kite, you won't know the difference. The best policy would be to slow down and engine through the mass of kites at slow speed. If its blowing 25kts, most kiters will be competent. They will be doing up to about 25kts across the water so can easily keep clear of you.
We're you approaching from up wind or downwind of the kites? When there are so many kites, the risk of collision between kites is high. Kites use the starboard rule for right of way between kites so are aware of the principal of right of way. The experienced guys will also know where the deep water is so will pretty much know the route of your boat. I suspect it was way more stressful for you than them

It's good to get the other perspective. The wind was from the north and I was travelling directly into the wind. The surfers were going across the wind from east to west and west to east just north of the two harbour symbols on the navionics screen shot above. As I said there was 50/60 coming at from left and right and some close to the bow and others close to my stern. Mine is a shallow draft but they won't have known that and even I had the weave about to avoid the rocks and the shallows.
I'd agree it was more stressful for me because it appeared to me these kids think they're indestructible and don't give a particular shit. As I said previously a few fell and were still being dragged along the water by their kites and I'd be fairly sure these had no or minimal control of where they were headed.

 

[ChromeDome]

I doubt the average kite surfer has a detailed appreciation of COLREGS, so slow down and use sound signals but stick to your chosen course and be ready to take avoiding action if necessary.

As all are aware sailboats motoring takes the role of motorboats in COLREGS respects..

The right of way rules in kiteboarding

 

[penfold]

That's fine, but Irish Rover was restricted by his draft to a narrow channel.

 

[Irish Rover]

The only analogy I can think of to the situation in which I found myself would be a motorist at a zebra crossing where there was a non stop stream of pedestrians crossing with no break. Crossings where this is likely to happen are generallyy controlled by lights but, what if one wasn't? Would the motorist sit for 6/7 hours until the flow stopped? Would he call the police?

 

[Irish Rover]

Heading south along the west coast of Naxos today we encountered a group of 6 kite surfers with 2 support ribs in attendance. All very civilised and easy to change course well advance to go around them.

 

[benjenbav]

As all are aware sailboats motoring takes the role of motorboats in COLREGS respects..

The right of way rules in kiteboarding

It’s frightening to think that a body of water users might be so briefed, introducing - as that document does - a concept of ‘right of way’, whilst making no mention of maintaining a safe course and speed, nor recognising that other water users may be constrained in their ability to manoeuvre.

If the 60 kite surfers mentioned had studied that briefing note they must have thought the OP was entirely at fault and should have simply moved out of their way by magic.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I sometimes see kite-surfers when visiting the sea-side at Hunstanton. Last time I saw them, it was quite breezy, and I was a bit perturbed by the following observations:
1) There was no safety boat.
2) Some of the surfers had got well down to leeward and were obviously struggling to get back to windward
3) While some of the surfers were obviously experienced and well able to manage their boards, many weren't!

I saw vans on shore marked with adverts for kite-sailing training, so I presume the group I saw were from that.

It's not a place where you'd be likely to encounter other boats (the water is very shallow), so the ColRegs issues didn't arise

 

[KevinV]

It’s frightening to think that a body of water users might be so briefed, introducing - as that document does - a concept of ‘right of way’, whilst making no mention of maintaining a safe course and speed, nor recognising that other water users may be constrained in their ability to manoeuvre.

If the 60 kite surfers mentioned had studied that briefing note they must have thought the OP was entirely at fault and should have simply moved out of their way by magic.

I've emailed the editor - be interesting to see if I get a response. My main concern is that they go large on "right of way" (which I can understand as shorthand, even if it isn't correct), but make no mention of the obligation on all vessels to avoid collisions, even when "in the right"

 

[geem]

I notice you have a power boat. It gets way more interesting when you have a mast!
We have spent much of the winter season kiting surfing and wing foiling. We launch from a tiny beach where there is a school that teaches both. Yachts love to come in to the anchorage and anchor just off the kite beach. This makes it difficult to launch and land a kite on the only spot available. For beginners, it makes it very unsafe. I have spoke to some of the cruisers that have anchored really close to the beach. Most are totally unaware that they are in the way. They are usually charter boats and happy to move when they realise they are at high risk of getting a kite wrapped around the mast.
We have had a couple of cruisers, not charterers, who simply refused to move. They said they had been anchoring in the same spot for 20 years so they deemed they had a right. They were also kitesurfers!
You meet all sorts whilst cruising and doing wing foiling, kite surfing and sailing we get a different prospective. There will always be a numpy kite surfer showing off and doing stupid and dangerous stuff. They are not unique. The idiot cruiser that blocked the beach and refused to move is no better.
The best story was the idiot who parked his catamaran in the best kiting spot then launched his kites from the boat. Spent all day kiting infront of the beach hindering others from launching and landing. Then when the school asked him politely if he would move his boat to a safer location he refused. His wife went kite surfing and wrapped his kite around his own mast. He got a great cheer as he sailed out of the anchorage from all the other cruisers and kiters who were safely anchored away from the tiny beach.

 

[KevinV]

I've emailed the editor - be interesting to see if I get a response. My main concern is that they go large on "right of way" (which I can understand as shorthand, even if it isn't correct), but make no mention of the obligation on all vessels to avoid collisions, even when "in the right"

Immediate response! My email first, then the response:

editor@surfertoday.com

Dear Sir/ Madam,

Your article on colregs for kitesurfers (The right of way rules in kiteboarding) was quoted in a yachting forum discussion in the last few days (Andiparos Kite Surfers - what the hell do I do?) - a motorboat concerned about how to cross a large group of kitesurfers using the full width of a channel where he was constricted by draught. He was wishing to abide by colregs but found it impossible in the situation.

Apart from the rather pedantic point that there is no "right of way" at sea (I understand why you would use the shorthand), I wonder if you might introduce a line or two about other vessels' (relative) lack of maneuverability vs a kitesurfer, and that it is always incumbent on all vessels to avoid collisions - regardless of "right of way".

I hope you receive this in the spirit of cooperation between water users that it is intended - I'm too old for kites, but used to windsurf a lot

Kind regards, Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for your email.

I guess that spirit of your email is: How can a boat get past an area full of kitesurfers, if they hold priority over my watercraft?
Is this it?

Well, yes, it’s a tricky call - a vicious circle.
I think there should be another variable added to the regular rules - common sense.

It’s a bit like four cars trying to get in a roundabout in four different entrances.

I suggest you write up a few sentences that could help improve the article and the overall knowledge. I can then add a few words.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Thank you,

Cheers,
__________________________

Luís Madureira Pinto
Executive Manager | SurferToday.com

@Irish Rover - would you like to write those few lines? You were there, so can probably better express what would be helpful?

 

[ylop]

I sometimes see kite-surfers when visiting the sea-side at Hunstanton. Last time I saw them, it was quite breezy, and I was a bit perturbed by the following observations:
1) There was no safety boat.

Surf schools, windsurf schools and kitesurf schools seem to put far less emphasis on safety boats than dinghy sailors do. Many (esp. those with "fixed locations") will have a small surf rescue type boat on the shore ready to launch quickly if needed, but it doesn't seem to be ubiquitous. I am assuming the choice of conditions, locations and experience factors into the decision.

2) Some of the surfers had got well down to leeward and were obviously struggling to get back to windward

Presumably, they either managed (which is how you learn) or found an alternative like walking back!

3) While some of the surfers were obviously experienced and well able to manage their boards, many weren't!

I saw vans on shore marked with adverts for kite-sailing training, so I presume the group I saw were from that.

I wouldn't assume they were all with the school. I've certainly noticed places where a school is teaching (who may be the ones doing well as someone is advising them, or might be the ones struggling as they are beginners but the instructor will get them back) but other people congregate there. Either because its just a very good spot for it, because they previously did some lessons there with the shool or because if you are inexperienced knowing the school thought the conditions were safe there that day provides a comfort blanket.

Oh and of course people who run kite schools often go out themselves and so there vehicles will be a nice advert in a prime surf spot even when they are not working.

It's not a place where you'd be likely to encounter other boats (the water is very shallow), so the ColRegs issues didn't arise

If the water is too shallow for most boats, many kit surfers would simply walk ashore if they run into problems.

 

[Daydream believer]

Much talk of colregs. But may I ask where kite surfers fall within the bounds of the colregs & how they specifically deal with such "beach toys"?

 

[KevinV]

Much talk of colregs. But may I ask where kite surfers fall within the bounds of the colregs & how they specifically deal with such "beach toys"?

Simple, they're a sailing vessel:

Rule 3
General definitions
. For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:
(a). The word “vessel” includes every description of water craft, including non-displacement craft, WIG craft and
seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.
(b). The term “power-driven vessel” means any vessel propelled by machinery.
(c). The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being
used.

 

[johnalison]

I think this is one of those situations where the rules may apply in a legal sense but have virtually no meaning. It doesn't make sense for a poorly manoeuvrable motor vessel to have to give way to an agile sailing vessel going at 15 knots plus. I have not myself encountered kite surfers in such a situation and have only watched them from a distance. As kiters are using their skills to get their pleasure without making a noise or any great environmental impact, I consider myself to be generally in their favour but I have found myself in a similar position to the OP in relation to other high speed craft such as catamarans and motor boats. Common sense suggests that the onus is on the much faster vessel to keep out of the way of slow vessels, though I realise that this can only be a moral pressure. When the fast vessel is not under full control and the slow vessel limited in its ability to alter course or speed, there is no clear solution that I can see, though I might jest that size is might in this case.

 

[geem]

I think this is one of those situations where the rules may apply in a legal sense but have virtually no meaning. It doesn't make sense for a poorly manoeuvrable motor vessel to have to give way to an agile sailing vessel going at 15 knots plus. I have not myself encountered kite surfers in such a situation and have only watched them from a distance. As kiters are using their skills to get their pleasure without making a noise or any great environmental impact, I consider myself to be generally in their favour but I have found myself in a similar position to the OP in relation to other high speed craft such as catamarans and motor boats. Common sense suggests that the onus is on the much faster vessel to keep out of the way of slow vessels, though I realise that this can only be a moral pressure. When the fast vessel is not under full control and the slow vessel limited in its ability to alter course or speed, there is no clear solution that I can see, though I might jest that size is might in this case.

Exactly. No kitesurfer wants to run into the side of a motor boat at 20kts. However, What a sailor thinks is close is very manageable to a competent kitersurfer.
If a yacht anchors in the kitespot they will often have kiteboards passing within 2 metres of the back of the anchored yacht. Its a good incentive for the yacht to move. Its sometimes very hard for the kiter to pass between anchored yachts off our local kite beach without passing really close. We have to tack up wind so you inevitably get close to anchored boats.

 

[Irish Rover]

@Irish Rover - would you like to write those few lines? You were there, so can probably better express what would be helpful?

Honestly, I don't see the point. The article as quoted is, in my opinion, extremely misleading insofar as it has no mention of the responsibility on all water users to take measures to avoid collisions and to be cognisant of circumstances which would immediately transform a surfer from being stand on to give way. There's also no mention of yachts under sail, vessels constrained by draft, vessels under tow etc etc. I think we just give this propaganda credence by contributing to it.

 

[Bouba]

Has anyone defined whether or not, for legal purposes, they are vessels or low flying aircraft?

 

[Daydream believer]

So what do the Colregs say about speed in congested situations? Are kite surfers entitled to travel at 20kts in confined spaces, or should they reduce speed to a more conservative, say, "6kts"?