And now the RYA wash their hands of it ...

[grumpy_o_g]

Where do you get this 'handful' from Paul?

Its thousands every year.

If the same problem existed with Cherbourg, i'd support the south coast sailors. And thats what its equivalent to. For most east coast boats, Belgium is the only viable weekend overseas opportunity, with other countries being too far.

Seems that the 'i'm allright Jack' mentality is spreading.

I think the I'm all right Jack mentality is sadly prevalent just about everywhere in this situation. I'm astounded at the reactions and behaviour of many of the people commenting on it.

Regarding your thousands of Eat Cost Yachties though; I'd guess there's a hundred-ish commercial boats operating out of Poole Harbour alone - must be at least 50. They are out most weekends in season for charter fishing, dives, etc. - not to mention ferries and trip boats boats (how does the chain ferry refuel?). Most of those boats don't have the luxury of a cash buffer and simply couldn't afford to pay tax/duty and then reclaim. That's just one, admittedly large, harbour where you're not only depriving people of their livelihoods (possibly leaving them with debts on their boats) but also depriving their customers of the ability to get out on the water. I'd have to put that ahead of people who, for their pleasure, want to go to Belgium but instead have to go the France or Holland, or even even simply not go cross-channel. I don't want them not to be able to go to Belgium, but I'm not willing to accept that's preferable to people losing their businesses.

 

[Koeketiene]

Only because you don't accept what has been said.

In the UK, we use red diesel, as recently confirmed by UK gov and HMRC.

Just because that doesn't suit you, doesn't mean that isn't what was announced.

Just out of idle curiosity: I noticed that your fine craft doesn't seem to have a diesel heater fitted.
Do you claim 60/40 or do you pay 100% tax?
Just wondering.

Just because the introduction of 100% taxed white wouldn't suit you, you can't deny those of us for whom it would make life considerably easier the right to argue our corner.

 

[PaulGooch]

Where do you get this 'handful' from Paul?

Its thousands every year.

If the same problem existed with Cherbourg, i'd support the south coast sailors. And thats what its equivalent to. For most east coast boats, Belgium is the only viable weekend overseas opportunity, with other countries being too far.

Seems that the 'i'm allright Jack' mentality is spreading.

Face it Neil - in the grand scheme of things East Coast sailors don't matter and are easily ignored.
When 'they' started putting up windfarms (and exclusions zones) left, right and center no-one on the South Coast cared. Ditto red diesel.
Yet, we are expected to get all excited about Studland Bay.

As i said before, i agree that things are less than ideal.

But, expecting a blanket change to white diesel to suit those boats that visit Belgium isn't (IMO) realistic. There are many ports and harbours around the UK where the bulk of the fuel supplied is for commercial use. Those places would not stop supplying red and it would be extremely unlikely they would fit an extra tank for white. So in those areas, leisure boating would be extremely difficult, possibly impossible.

Wells Next the Sea, for example. I'll bet that the bulk of the fuel there is sold to the fishing and charter boats. Would Wells fit a 2nd tank to sell white ? Would it be viable to cart jerry cans down to the harbour ? If they don't, no diesel from Gt Yarmouth to The Humber. You boys might be able to make the trip in your sail boats, i certainly couldn't do it in my mobo, without carrying substantial amounts in cans, which would be illegal to get from the garage. My boat is very economical for a mobo.

Take somewhere like Newlyn, mostly fishing boats and absolutely no chance of them stopping the sale of red. Would they fit a white tank ?

Like i said, easy for Belgium. They only have 40 miles of coast to worry about.

We'd end up with huge stretches of coastline with no available fuel. We'd also end up with the most expensive fuel in the EU (yes i know the 60/40 is supposed to be for heating, but we all know that almost everyone uses it regardless and anyone with any sense knows that's just how HMRC intended it to be). I suspect we'd see a lot of empty marina berths, not that we aren't seeing them now. Three years ago the Orwell/Stour marinas had massive waiting lists. Now you can take you pick from a selection of berths at any marina you choose in the area. How will the marinas make up the loss of revenue ? How many of you want to see a hike in berthing fees.

 

[PaulGooch]

Just out of idle curiosity: I noticed that your fine craft doesn't seem to have a diesel heater fitted.
Do you claim 60/40 or do you pay 100% tax?
Just wondering.

Just because the introduction of 100% taxed white wouldn't suit you, you can't deny those of us for whom it would make life considerably easier the right to argue our corner.

I claim the 60/40 split that HMRC suggested. I agree with their estimates that that is a fair split. I use the 40% rebated fuel for heating via the screen demisters and for keeping the batteries charged. Now, you might argue that that is gonads, but who's to say it isn't ?

I don't deny that it would make your life easier (on the surface at least) to switch to white. But, i don't think it would be fair or practical for a greater majority of people.

I also agree that the "i'm alright Jack" mentality is showing here. With respect, your preference that the entire leisure marine industry, the UK fishing fleet and all UK commercial boats be forced to use white does clearly demonstrate that.

I'm sure that a solution is needed, but it has to be a solution that works for everyone.

 

[PaulGooch]

Where do you get this 'handful' from Paul?

Its thousands every year.

If the same problem existed with Cherbourg, i'd support the south coast sailors. And thats what its equivalent to. For most east coast boats, Belgium is the only viable weekend overseas opportunity, with other countries being too far.

Seems that the 'i'm allright Jack' mentality is spreading.

Seriously Neil, are you saying that thousands of East Coast boats visit Belgium every year ?

 

[Koeketiene]

I suspect we'd see a lot of empty marina berths, not that we aren't seeing them now. Three years ago the Orwell/Stour marinas had massive waiting lists. Now you can take you pick from a selection of berths at any marina you choose in the area.

Are you arguing that this is a bad thing?
For the first time in a long while, we're paying less for our berth this year than we did last year. Long may this trend continue.

 

[Koeketiene]

Seriously Neil, are you saying that thousands of East Coast boats visit Belgium every year ?

Maybe not thousands, but several hundreds - easily.

 

[PaulGooch]

Are you arguing that this is a bad thing?
For the first time in a long while, we're paying less for our berth this year than we did last year. Long may this trend continue.

Shotley went up this year. I had asked about some discount, which was dismissed. Just after we moved (nothing to do with the discount rejection), they dreamt up the offer of £400 in your account for recommending a friend .

You do have to wonder though, how many empty berths will it take before they all have to start putting fees up ? The marina running costs must keep rising with increased wages and energy bills. Income is falling due to empty berths and presumably lower fuel sales.

 

[Koeketiene]

You do have to wonder though, how many empty berths will it take before they all have to start putting fees up ?

The marina that doesn't will have no problem filling berths.
After so many years of 'we'll squeeze the pips till they squeek' it's nice to see the boot on the other foot.

Remember: we're all in this together.

 

[Stork_III]

Shotley went up this year. I had asked about some discount, which was dismissed. Just after we moved (nothing to do with the discount rejection), they dreamt up the offer of £400 in your account for recommending a friend .

You do have to wonder though, how many empty berths will it take before they all have to start putting fees up ? The marina running costs must keep rising with increased wages and energy bills. Income is falling due to empty berths and presumably lower fuel sales.

Arriving at the marina each weekend with 2 or 3 20l barrels of red in the back of your car probably doesn't help those fuel sales either.

 

[maby]

I think the I'm all right Jack mentality is sadly prevalent just about everywhere in this situation. I'm astounded at the reactions and behaviour of many of the people commenting on it.

Regarding your thousands of Eat Cost Yachties though; I'd guess there's a hundred-ish commercial boats operating out of Poole Harbour alone - must be at least 50. They are out most weekends in season for charter fishing, dives, etc. - not to mention ferries and trip boats boats (how does the chain ferry refuel?). Most of those boats don't have the luxury of a cash buffer and simply couldn't afford to pay tax/duty and then reclaim. That's just one, admittedly large, harbour where you're not only depriving people of their livelihoods (possibly leaving them with debts on their boats) but also depriving their customers of the ability to get out on the water. I'd have to put that ahead of people who, for their pleasure, want to go to Belgium but instead have to go the France or Holland, or even even simply not go cross-channel. I don't want them not to be able to go to Belgium, but I'm not willing to accept that's preferable to people losing their businesses.

There's no question of commercial users being denied red diesel - there's an EU directive that says they must be permitted it. As for "I'm all right jack" - that applies equally on both sides and is inevitable. Mobo owners do not want their tax evasion to be curtailed to suit raggies who want to travel far and wide, and raggies don't want their freedom of movement to be curtailed to suit mobo owners - the only solution that might suit both would be if the Belgians could be convinced to formalise the informal apparent agreement to turn a blind eye to red diesel if the receipt shows 100% tax paid. It seems that the RYA is asking them to do that - might be the first useful thing they have done in years!

 

[fireball]

I think the I'm all right Jack mentality is sadly prevalent just about everywhere in this situation. I'm astounded at the reactions and behaviour of many of the people commenting on it.

Regarding your thousands of Eat Cost Yachties though; I'd guess there's a hundred-ish commercial boats operating out of Poole Harbour alone - must be at least 50. They are out most weekends in season for charter fishing, dives, etc. - not to mention ferries and trip boats boats (how does the chain ferry refuel?). Most of those boats don't have the luxury of a cash buffer and simply couldn't afford to pay tax/duty and then reclaim. That's just one, admittedly large, harbour where you're not only depriving people of their livelihoods (possibly leaving them with debts on their boats) but also depriving their customers of the ability to get out on the water. I'd have to put that ahead of people who, for their pleasure, want to go to Belgium but instead have to go the France or Holland, or even even simply not go cross-channel. I don't want them not to be able to go to Belgium, but I'm not willing to accept that's preferable to people losing their businesses.

You're assuming that Poole will only have a single refuelling point (or all refuelling points will only offer 1 fuel type) - I would hazzard a guess that Poole, along with the Solent has sufficient quantity of both leisure and commercial to support both fuel sources.
It is the smaller and more isolated harbours that would find it hard to justify the provision of both red and white.

 

[Elemental]

I claim the 60/40 split that HMRC suggested. I agree with their estimates that that is a fair split. I use the 40% rebated fuel for heating via the screen demisters and for keeping the batteries charged. Now, you might argue that that is gonads, but who's to say it isn't ?

Well, I do call that gonads. All you do by that is line your own pockets at the expense of the vast majority of the UK who do not evade tax. Very community minded of you I'm sure.

I also agree that the "i'm alright Jack" mentality is showing here.

Quite...

 

[maby]

Well, I do call that gonads. All you do by that is line your own pockets at the expense of the vast majority of the UK who do not evade tax. Very community minded of you I'm sure.

Quite...

I suspect that the vast majority would evade tax if they could - they just don't get HMRC handing the opportunity to them on a plate!

 

[PaulGooch]

Well, I do call that gonads. All you do by that is line your own pockets at the expense of the vast majority of the UK who do not evade tax. Very community minded of you I'm sure.

Quite...

HMRC suggested it's that was a fair level of split and i agree with them.

As for being community minded, why would i choose to pay additional taxes that i don't have to pay ?

 

[Boo2]

It won't appeal to the purists but it seems to be a very pragmatic solution to me.

I'm just a bystander here, but AIUI that isn't a solution because the Belgian legal position is that it is an offence to have marked diesel in your tank quite irrespective of whether you've paid duty on said fuel.

Boo2

 

[timbartlett]

Well, I do call that gonads. All you do by that is line your own pockets at the expense of the vast majority of the UK who do not evade tax. Very community minded of you I'm sure.

Quite...

If you call that "gonads" then I'm afraid it demonstrates that you have failed to understand the situation.

The EU has set minimum rates of taxation on energy products:
- a low rate for uses such as heating, agriculture, and commercial fishing
- and a high rate for other purposes such as road transport and pleasureboats

The UK government has always been exceptionally greedy: it has (literally) "cashed in" on our physical separation from the rest of Europe by charging exorbitant rates of tax, particularly on road fuel, and has no plans to reduce the rate to anything like EU norms.

The "60:40" rate (40p/litre) was and is a pragmatic compromise. The tax on "60:40" fuel is way way way above the EU minimum for pleasure craft (0.33 Euros/litre), but it is close enough to the rates charged by our EU neighbours (eg 0.43 Euros/litre in France) that the really big users (big mobos) are less likely to be tempted to refuel abroad, keep their boats abroad, or give up boating altogether.

It is not "evasion" to pay the tax required: no one is under any obligation to pay more tax than is legitimately demanded of them.

And it is frankly ludicrous to suggest that anyone is "lining their pockets" by paying 40p to the government for every litre of fuel they use (to say nothing of the VAT!) It would be nearer the mark to suggest that you are "lining your pockets" by depriving the government of all those 40ps that you "save" every time you hoist your sails and switch your engine off!

 

[maby]

I'm just a bystander here, but AIUI that isn't a solution because the Belgian legal position is that it is an offence to have marked diesel in your tank quite irrespective of whether you've paid duty on said fuel.

Boo2

The Belgian authorities did, apparently, agree for a while to not fine people that had receipts to prove 100% tax paid. There are reports that they are informally still following that policy though they are not publicising it. The RYA are trying to get them to make it formal.

 

[fireball]

Of course we're lining our pockets - in exactly the same way that we're "saving £400" on that gadget that's been discount and we really must have ...

 

[Grumpybear]

Ah, so you know the Belgian law then? Could you please tell us (or at least me) what it is?

oh dear, it seems that Toad's condition is catching. perhaps I should have said that, on the evidence of the god knows how many posts on this subject, the Belgian Customs appear to have been acting in a manner consistent with what I deduce to be the intent of the extracts of the two apparently relevant EU directives that have been posted on the forum - unlike our own governments of both political persuasions and their civil servants, who appear to me to be either utterly incompetent or all too ready to listen to short termist lobbying - probably both.

if you really want to know what the Belgian law is, as opposed to trolling, I suggest you find out for yourself!

have a rewarding day.