Anchoring "fun"

[J Neeves]

It is not often that the words 'anchoring', 'Volvo Race' and Open 60's appear in the one sentence but:

How does the foredeck on a Volvo yacht, or Open 60, or America's Cup or Clipper communicate with the cockpit - I'm not thinking about anchoring (though they do anchor on the Volvo and Vendee) but how do they speak to each other when conditions are less than ideal. Somehow I cannot image shouting works, nor that hand or torch signals covers the range of eventualities.

Jonathan

 

[sailaboutvic]

It is not often that the words 'anchoring', 'Volvo Race' and Open 60's appear in the one sentence but:

How does the foredeck on a Volvo yacht, or Open 60, or America's Cup or Clipper communicate with the cockpit - I'm not thinking about anchoring (though they do anchor on the Volvo and Vendee) but how do they speak to each other when conditions are less than ideal. Somehow I cannot image shouting works, nor that hand or torch signals covers the range of eventualities.

Jonathan

Do you not think most of that it good team work and everyone has a good idea what the next man going or is about to do in most cases ?
but as we all know no matter how much you practises some thing , it can alway go wrong and in them type of condition when it goes wrong , it goes wrong big time .

OH by the way Jonathan , I am English just my spelling and grammar is C r A p , I wish I had the excused of not being English , maybe if I spend more time in the class room in my younger days and less time under cars I wouldn't have the problem now .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs

 

[J Neeves]

Having raced our own yacht with RORC and a consistent crew over 4 years it does not matter how good we all are, when it goes wrong it goes seriously wrong and the people at the back end have no idea why it is that the people at the front end cannot solve such a simply problem (and oddly shouting does not seem to help). I confess we did not do much anchoring. But ours was a small ULDB and it was not such an issue, when you get to 70' and are hitting 20 knots I'd have thought they might have moved to something more sophisticated than hand signals - but maybe not.

It was your Croatia website that threw me off, but you are still a foreigner (and I have nothing against foreigners) - I'm a Scot.

I wish I'd spent more time under cars than learning lots of things that do not seem of much use now - no worries

Jonathan

 

[sailaboutvic]

It was your Croatia website that threw me off, but you are still a foreigner (and I have nothing against foreigners) - I'm a Scot.



Jonathan

NO worries , am a Londoner and every one North of Watford gap are foreigner to me too .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[sailaboutvic]

Back on thread - ooh they do work!

Someone mentioned the use of a trip line when using tandem anchors. This is a good idea if the anchors hold all night and you want to easily recover the anchors in lighter winds later on but if you find yourself having to recover the lot at 0300 in the dark in 70 knot winds the last thing you need is a length of rope with a buoy to get around your propeller. In those strength winds you have very little control over where your boat wants to steer off to so the chances of getting accurately up to a buoy to retrieve it are pretty much zero anyway.

Maybe a trip line tied between the primary anchor and what I call the angel anchor is a possible solution. Then when you have the angel anchor in the bow you can detach the trip line (I'd suggest a quick release clip of some sort rather than a slow to untie in the dark knot) and then use the rope drum on the windlass to quickly retrieve the primary anchor backwards. This only leaves a bight of chain hanging in the water which if you ensure is not long enough to get back into the prop should cause no problems and be easy to recover. Speed is of the essence when you are trying to recover anchors in very strong winds as you will head downwind very rapidly with no engine in use so it is best to have a set up that ensures no need to be worried enough to slip the engine out of gear. You also want a set up that can be quickly deployed again as it can be very disorientating motoring around a pitch black anchorage when the boat isn't heading to where your pointing it and there are twenty or so other boats motoring around, some without lights on!

Maybe this trip line between anchors is the answer to easy recovery of tandem anchors, if someone else could just test the theory in strong winds for me and report back I'd be most grateful

When we set a tripping line and that's not very often only when we think we may need it , we never leave it on a buoy , I always being it back to the bow , two reason , ( 1) no one gets it wrap around there prop and ( 2 ) no one use it as a mooring buoy . in the case of tandem anchors , it becomes easier to get the second anchor and chain on board , and it not banging away at the bow as the boat is bouncing about .
Tiding in between the chain that link the two anchor to gather ,Mmmm I couldn't say I never tried it ,

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[Storyline]

.....
I think the most interesting comment - is who remembers any of this when it is, say 50 knots. We sat out 55 knots only a few months ago (that's 55 knots at the masthead). We were a bit apprehensive I was all geared up, full wet weather gear etc. It never crossed my mind to take a video - and how I now regret it. We had plenty of time, we had nothing else to do
.....

Took some video of our mid 50 knot experience but unfortunately it is on Hi8 so I must find a way to convert it and put it on youtube as it is quite dramatic & very noisy.

To occupy our time a friend and I logged the wind speed at one minute intervals for three hours and then plotted them on a graph. I was interested to see if there was a pattern of 'waves' within the wind but unfortunately we could detect nothing obvious. The anchorage was a bay on a small island and the only land between us and the open sea was very low lying, maybe 50' high at the highest point so there was nothing to disturb the wind. The gale lasted one full day and half a night but the high winds only two hours. During the highest winds we did not veer around much so I felt confident the anchor would hold. There were five boats and the following day when it was all over (30 knots felt like nothing) we all met up on the largest boat to swap stories and release tension over a few drams !
From that day to this we always make sure we are actually anchored.

 

[J Neeves]

I also have a slight doubt over some reports of X0 knots of wind in an anchorage.

We did sit through 70 knots once, it had been forecast a day or so earlier and we knew exactly what to expect (well we didn't - but if you've sat through 40knots then you know 70 knots will be 10 times worse). So on hearing the forecast we upped anchor, sailed 40nm to the most secluded and sheltered place we could find and hunkered down with 5 other boats. When the storm hit the noise, all night, was alike sitting next to a 747 with its engines running. But we were 100' below the tree line, the tress covered the top of the little hill behind which we were sheltering. The wind in our anchorage was around 30 knots. So yes it was forecast to be 70 knots and we sat through it - but we have never experienced 70 knots at masthead in an anchorage.

I have no doubt of the veracity of reports in this thread, of 70 knots, but how many people have been at anchor in 70 knots - and why, 70 knots at the masthead does not sound like an anchorage (anchorages being places of shelter) - unless its a revolving tropical storm (and not many on YBW get to the tropics anyway).

I do like to plan to worst case scenario - but 70 knots would reasonably have been forecast, even if they said it was only to be 50 knots (and with a 50 knot forecast we'ed be scurrying off to the nearest shelter).

So under what circumstances develop such that you are obliged to sit out 70 knots, at the mast head (and how often does it occur - to the individual).

Jonathan

 

[Storyline]

Just cannot envision what 70 knots must be like. The noise at 50kt was extraordinary with everything screaming and it was hard to even use the VHF to talk to the other boats during the two hours. Fortunately it was mid afternoon and bizarrely the sun was out ! As you say the effects go up exponentially and as I said in my post when our gale moderated to 30kt it felt like a breeze in comparison.

 

[Storyline]

.....
But we were 100' below the tree line, the tress covered the top of the little hill behind which we were sheltering. The wind in our anchorage was around 30 knots. So yes it was forecast to be 70 knots and we sat through it - but we have never experienced 70 knots at masthead in an anchorage.
.....

Yes, trees - the biggest friend of a yachtsman in a gale. Not only do they provide shelter but you can moor up to them !

On another occasion we were sheltering from a forecast F10 occ 11 in a sheltered sea loch under some trees. The most we got was somewhere in the mid 30's whereas the local weather reports said it was over 100mph on Ben Nevis around 30-40nm away.
Edit: thinking about it, that is why we got the 50kt + on Canna as I have just looked at Google Earth and there was nothing between us and Florida in the sou'westerly apart from a low lying bit of scrubland and a few scraps of heather ! There was no choice as we had set off from Tobermory with just a 7 forecast and it was half way across when we got a gale 8 imminent on the radio. That night we did indeed get a gale but it was the day after next when we really got battered when another low deepened more than forecast. The first gale probably did us a favour by digging the CQR in very deeply. Nobody had moved after the first gale during which two boats dragged but during the second big gale nobody dragged so everyone's anchor must have been pulled well in.

If we dragged in anything much over 50kn then I do not think our engine/prop combination would be enough to hold us against the wind. Have to do something about it as we are definitely under propped.

As a matter of interest and a bit o/t, what is the best tactic if heaven forbid you did drag - is it better to attempt to hold the bows to the wind or the stern ? Realise that the stern presents a lot more windage but if bows on, surely it would be very hard to stop the wind getting on one side or the other and then you would be violently swung and make sudden progress downwind.

 

[J Neeves]

Most yachts today have a whole host of real estate built over the cockpit which is streamlined from ahead but will act like a spinnaker from astern (our cat, and most other cats, are an extreme example). So if you want to stay roughly where you are, bow to wind. With a forecast you'll have it all down (but if you had that information you would have had all the anchor out as well). We would have spare anchor ready to deploy on the foredeck.

We would agree - tie to a tree (or a shore based rock - carry short chain for such eventuality) if you can.

Jonathan

Edit, much will depend on what's down wind - but on the assumption you have been 'in shelter' then what's ahead is as good as its going to get - agree tacking back and forth might allow you to get closer to shore.

More edit We tend to anchor in isolated places but tacking into the wind, with the engines, to try to get shelter and re-anchor depends on having lots of room (and not being single handed as you need to get the anchor up). Equally running depends on those yachts ahead of you having their lights on (something people forget in the panic) or having radar.

 

[Storyline]

In our 70 knot experience ..... I don't think that reversing would have worked as most props are less efficient in reverse so we wouldn't of had enough power to go directly against the wind. Let me know if you get the chance to try it one day as I'd be interested to know.

It goes without saying that we really do not want to get into such a situation. Hopefully it is also unlikely as we have become very cautious now we sail mainly without crew. Have a hard and fast rule that we never put to sea if an 8 is mentioned in our sea area. Also we sail in coastal waters and shelter is rarely more than half a days sail away.

 

[J Neeves]

When we use trees we tend to anchor stern to shore and thus into the wind and being a cat, with high windage when stern to wind, this might seem odd. But if you can tie to trees they are providing shelter and given finite length of cordage we are usually close to shore. But we would also anchor (as well as tie to the trees) so, deploy dinghy (with shore line in dinghy) drop anchor, reverse up - taking dinghy ashore with shore line already attached to stern (in our case we use a stern bridle) but doing this as engines running in reverse to keep the stern 'at' the shore. Its pretty simple but you do need to keep the engines running in reverse and its easier or quicker if the dinghy is ready.

Jonathan

Edit We carry enough cordage for tying one line ashore, 100m + enough for our transom bridle but we also have 2 full sized rodes and could cobble together another 100m from mooring lines. We have short bits of chain to put round rocks and short rope strops, splices each end with hose pipe covers for the trees. And we have used them all, together.

 

[Storyline]

You also know that a tree is not going to drag !

Around Scotland there are some small anchorages where people have attached rings to the rock. Usually only use them in place of the kedge though as I can never be certain how strong a rusty old ring actually is. There maybe plenty of metal in the ring part but it is the bit that is driven into the rock that concerns.

 

[NormanS]

I've only once had 70 knots at anchor, (actually 74) and that wasn't at masthead, but at wheelhouse roof level. I've had prolonged winds in the 60s. All these have been in the Outer Hebrides, where finding trees to shelter behind, has it's own problems.

 

[Resolution]

As a matter of interest and a bit o/t, what is the best tactic if heaven forbid you did drag - is it better to attempt to hold the bows to the wind or the stern ? Realise that the stern presents a lot more windage but if bows on, surely it would be very hard to stop the wind getting on one side or the other and then you would be violently swung and make sudden progress downwind.

Last month we had to spend an hour stooging around waiting to enter the Corinth Canal. The wind was 40 knots plus, and seas were short and steep. We were motoring, not anchored. I tried both ways - motoring slowly to windward, and hanging off the prop in reverse. Going to windward required concentration to keep the bows to wind, and every few minutes one would have to admit defeat and circle round, which was a bit active on the rolling front! In reverse, lots of throttle was necessary to have any effect, and the shocks of waves hitting the transom and rudder were considerable. I had to hold the wheel very tight to avoid the rudder crashing round. Overall reverse felt less safe than heading into the wind.

 

[TradewindSailor]

Bow on is the only way to take 70 knots at anchor. Yachts are too vulnerable to getting pooped if stern on and then there is all that moisture and grit laden air. Try opening the companion way stern on ..... and you will see what I mean!

I was in Lanzarotte in a hurricane. I don't think it got much above 70kt where we were .... but it go up to 110 kts? in Grand Canaria. We got plastered by the volcanic gravel coming off the shore ..... a cheap ex-foliation. At least the fetch was short. The experience was not enjoyable but it was just manageable. Checking for chafe and using the engines to reduce the load on the anchors was essential from say 50kts and up. Some boats went walkabout in as little as 25kts.

This is not the only time I've been in big winds, but it was the first. It taught me a great deal. The main thing is to reduce windage, put down as much ground tackle as possible, check for chafe, and run the engines ..... they are useful to reduce the load on the rodes and to help dodge any boat dragging down from windward.

I haven't been through 110 kts, but I know people that have. Even in 70 kts you don't want to be wearing bulky foul weather gear that flaps and causes a lot of drag. Diving goggles are useful, but there's not much to see with all the dirt and moisture in the air.

Even in 70kts I wouldn't want to be in a marina .... fixed in position, and with the possibility of the cleats and pontoons breaking away.

 

[MarcJ]

I've just been catching up on this thread, having read the first page or so when originally started. Many thanks for all the contributions. What a great resource this forum is!!

 

[estarzinger]

Maybe a trip line tied between the primary anchor and what I call the angel anchor is a possible solution. Then when you have the angel anchor in the bow you can detach the trip line (I'd suggest a quick release clip of some sort rather than a slow to untie in the dark knot) and then use the rope drum on the windlass to quickly retrieve the primary anchor backwards.

Maybe this trip line between anchors is the answer to easy recovery of tandem anchors, if someone else could just test the theory in strong winds for me and report back I'd be most grateful

Tandom's are used quite frequently among the Patagonian cruising fleet . . . And that is exactly the standard and accepted recovery technique (Floating line is recommended). It works very well. It is described in gory detail in the main cruising guide.

 

[J Neeves]

Tying to trees, or rocks, has another advantage - it allows more yachts in one anchorage (its a sort of Med moor) - which if the anchorage is small and isolated means that some one arriving at 2am might still find space.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Well after having to deal with 50 plus kts a few times this year , I can only say I am in no hurry to experiences 70 kts . As it happens I happy if I never have to deal 70 kts of wind in this life time

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com