Anchoring "fun"

[Storyline]

A bit off topic but a question regarding anchor sizing.
At the moment we carry a 20kg Rocna on the bow and a 35lb CQR buried deep in the cavern. Now we would like a Fortress which we could keep conveniently on the the taffrail. I am sure I read on here (but cannot find) a comment that it is not sensible to have a kedge that could not also double as a primary anchor. This would sound easy as the Fortress seems easy to hang flattish off a rail and there also being so light.

The boat is 36' with a lower freeboard than modern designs. She displaces 7t + but I reckon that as every nook and cranny is filled with stuff that we could be approaching 9 or 10 tons.

The choices are;
FX16 wt = 5kg rec boat size 33' - 38'
FX23 wt = 7kg rec boat size 39' - 45'
FX37 wt = 10kg rec boat size 46' - 51'

The plan would be for a short length of chain attached (5m ?) and then either 3 strand nylon for normal use (kedge) or another 50m of 8mm chain for use if laying it in a V for an expected gale.

Any opinions welcomed

Sorry again for o/t

 

[J Neeves]

I agree with Noelex on speed. Our windlass whips the anchor up so quickly if there is any problem you simply do not react in time. I'd rather slower - but I have what I've got!

But I have to suggest that Noelex needs to buy a catamaran, then you sit on a chair in the centre locker and install any heavy item with comparative ease - well except that our locker has anchors in it.

Jonathan

 

[Storyline]

I think this is pretty standard on a lot of models.
Sounds easy, but the reality of lying cramped in the anchor locker holding a heavy motor above delicate bits of your anatomy while attaching the bolts with your other hand is less appealing in reality
.....

In my case I was lying flat on the forecabin bed trying to fit two hands through a small inspection hatch - cannot really remember all the painful details but I think I might have had someone on the foredeck taking some of the weight on a line led down the chain pipe and as said earlier there was a piece of timber involved. That is why all the terminals are regularly greased as I really do not want to have to take it off again !

 

[noelex]

I am not a great fan of using two anchors for the purpose of increasing holding. As others have said, it is very difficult to even out the pull of the two anchors. This means the holding power is not that much greater than a single anchor. There are complications, such as a bit of mess if the wind changes direction, as well as potential problems from swinging differently to other boats. In the event of dragging retrieval can become a nightmare. The anchor and rode can of course be cut away, but few boats carry more than two suitable anchors let alone the two lengths of chain.

A much better solution in my view is slightly larger single anchor. This will give better holding than two anchors (providing the main anchor works well). Is easier, simpler and is always deployed ready to work in the event of unexpected conditions, which despite modern forecasts are not uncommon.

Multiple anchors do have a lot of other valuable uses (such as reducing the swing radius) and there are sound reasons to deploy them, but not as a tactic to deal with normal bad weather at an anchorage.

There are a few of exceptions:

1. If you have little confidence in your anchor's ability in the particular substrate. Using two different models gives you a some chance that one will work.

2. If your yacht shears about a lot a small additional anchor is one way of reducing this problem and therefore the load on your primary anchor.

3. With very severe weather such as a named storm. In these conditions there is almost no hope if you drag and you might as well put down everything you have got.


I must admit I am always a bit nervous if a boat anchors upwind of me with two anchors. Invariably they have adopted this tactic from a history of multiple drags in the past. There is message there.

 

[J Neeves]

A bit off topic but a question regarding anchor sizing.
At the moment we carry a 20kg Rocna on the bow and a 35lb CQR buried deep in the cavern. Now we would like a Fortress which we could keep conveniently on the the taffrail. I am sure I read on here (but cannot find) a comment that it is not sensible to have a kedge that could not also double as a primary anchor. This would sound easy as the Fortress seems easy to hang flattish off a rail and there also being so light.

The boat is 36' with a lower freeboard than modern designs. She displaces 7t + but I reckon that as every nook and cranny is filled with stuff that we could be approaching 9 or 10 tons.

The choices are;
FX16 wt = 5kg rec boat size 33' - 38'
FX23 wt = 7kg rec boat size 39' - 45'
FX37 wt = 10kg rec boat size 46' - 51'

The plan would be for a short length of chain attached (5m ?) and then either 3 strand nylon for normal use (kedge) or another 50m of 8mm chain for use if laying it in a V for an expected gale.

Any opinions welcomed

Sorry again for o/t

I would not want to discourage anyone buying an enormous anchor, the anchors makers would love it, but an FX 37 is huge! and might only weight 10kg but it will fill your dinghy (and in any event I think a bit big - but many will disagree).

We have a 38' cat, 6t (but maybe like you getting nearer 7t) and on long cruises we carry a 15kg primary and a FX23 (which we have used as a primary) + others. In clean sand and in mud the Fortress is superb. If bad weather is forecast and there is a dominant wind direction then the Fortress is superb. In soft mud, and maybe soft sand, then no anchor (at all) can match a Fortress. In weed (many anchors will be defeated) and in an anchorage of loose rocks concave anchors and a Fortress might be defeated.

We use 40m of 3 ply and 30m of chain for our Fortress (we had the 3 ply already) but I'd go for anchor plait - its easier to store.

WE use 2 x 14m climbing rope snubbers.

Choice depends on where you might sail, or anchor.

We would not leave home waters without an assembled Fortress and if the conditions are iffy it sits on the bow with its rode (in a milk crate) ready to deploy. If the forecast is severe - we dinghy it out and set in a 'V' 'alongside' the primary. It is not our primary because it simply does not fit on our bow roller and would cost a few thousand to change as the bow roller is part of the structure to our yacht.

As an aside I'd ditch the CQR and replace it with another anchor 'different' to your Rocna but matched to the same sized yacht, so another 20kg but a Spade (maybe think alloy, 10kg), Kobra, Excel (maybe think alloy 10kg), Ultra (wait and the 'new' Rocna or maybe the Boss). The Fortress, alloy Spade and alloy Excel have the added advantage of being demountable (and you could bring back in your luggage if you were visiting) - but an anchor is no use in a locker in pieces!

I simply do to believe in oversized anchors (many do) and we carry a cross section of anchors, all primary sized, because no anchor is perfect. In anchorages with rock and stones, convex can choke; in weed a Fortress might be defeated, in mud - nothing touches a Fortress (and some are downright useless).

Jonathan

edit: Noelex, our post crossed - possibly you have not seen the recent Fortress testing where some anchors simply did not hold, at all. in Jamiesons Bay part of the anchorage is rocks from 6" to 1' - perfect to choke a concave and certainly a Fortress would not work, but its a gorgeous place - but I could not recommend anyone to it - with only one choice of anchor.

We have been using our 15kg anchor now for almost 10 years, we have not dragged - despite cruising western Tasmania on a regular basis.

 

[vyv_cox]

15 kg Rocna and a Fortress FX16 (16 kg Delta stowed below) on 35 ft with displacement about 5.5 tons but weight measured on the hoist 7 tons. The Fortress does hold well and is the size recommended as the primary anchor for the boat. We have not dragged either of the ones in use but we do set them at 90 degrees on occasion, mainly to make life more comfortable on board by reducing yaw angle. Have not experienced the 'walking down wind' referred to earlier, despite several days with this setup in 40 knots of wind.

I suspect you would get away with the Fortress FX16 on a 38 ft boat as its surface area is so large compared with that of the recommended Rocna.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I have been following this thread very carefully, as a full time live aboard and live on the hook most of the time , anchoring is a subject that affect us very much .

I have use both the tandem and the fork mooring technique quite a lot over the years . When using two anchors in tandem we used an delta 16 kg with a fortress FX23 as the leading anchor with two metres of 10 mm chain between them , being so light we found the fortress is easy to retrieved and by having a tripping line the anchor and chain can easily be brought back on board once the first anchor is on the bow roller .

This year we have anchored in this way a few times , only differences is , instead of the delta we used an 20 kg Rocna and the fortress in front , NOW the really question is , what really going on down below ? , The answer to that question is , I don't know ,As I not sitting on the sea bed as the anchors are drop and watching how they are behaving as they hit the ground or while we are digging them in , I can only guess , all I can say is we have held in some big blows , 40 to 50 kts and plus . Out of the three time that we used the anchors in tandem this year we had to brake both anchors out twice out of the three times , Which would suggest to me that both anchors where dug in , I have to add we only use tandem anchor if I am 90 per cent sure the wind isn't going to swing us 180 , that’s not to say that they wouldn’t re set them self or at less one of them .

We could back the anchors but that can cause more problems in it self . so if the wind is going to swing around To be on the safe side I would lay two anchors in a fork mooring type in any big blow .

There is the disadvantages in tandem the anchors , that all the pressure is on one cable .where on a fork mooring it on two .
Like everything else in my view there a some factors you have to take in account before one can say if something works or not . I would be very interested to see some real time video test done.

Two minor problem we have found with the fork anchoring system is , if the wind swing you around enough time you end up having to untangle the mess and in the right condition you could end up with only one anchor working , the second problem , if other boats drag towards you and you need to move quickly you have two anchors and cable to deal with , I have lost count how many time this as happened to us ,where inexperience skippers specially in the dark and in a blow are too scared to lift there anchor and go and relay or leave the anchorages and go into deeper waters but instead just hope the anchor will re set itself by which time it too late and they are hitting the boat behind them .
off course the solution is to buoy one off and come back to get it later but if they are tangle , than that's become time consuming and in that type of situation when you have a boat bearing down on you , which probity weight three time as much as you , last thing you be wanted to do , is mess about with tangle anchor lines .
I think it a case if it works for you then use it , we all know what works for one person don't always work for another or all the time .
I suppose one advances for the fork system ageist anchors in tandem is , that it easier to lay a second anchor at a later time without disturbing the first anchor and to tell if they are both set or not .
Interesting threat I shall keep reading
www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[J Neeves]

Most of the international cruisers we meet carry multiple anchors. But the cruisers we meet are travelling round the world, need to be able to cater for every situation, and commonly cannot get a replacement anchor - except by sailing 100's or thousands of miles.



In Tasmania it is unusual to have much company at all - but given the cross section of seabeds anyone making the circumnavigation and stopping in Macquarrie Harbour, mud; Tamar, mud; Spain and Wineglass Bay, sand; Kent Group, kelp etc and only using one anchor (however big) and only enough cordage for 2 rodes - needs their head examined.

We met a couple once who had lost their, only, anchor. They could only stop if they met another yacht with a spare for the night. It does not matter if your anchor is small or big - if its your only anchor and you lose it - stupid. It is equally stupid to arrive in an anchorage where your anchor does not work. We watched a well found yacht, Swan 45' or thereabouts (its well known as an ocean racer in Oz) trying to anchor in mud in Tassie - multiple tries (well respected anchor), would not hold - they did like the one we lent them, even if undersize, as it worked.

But everyone to their own, much depends on how far off the beaten track you go.

I confess never to have seen the FX 16, our FX 23 is quite large, about 30% bigger than our steel 15kg primary, but is the size recommended for our yacht. At 8kg its easy to handle, it stores well assembled in our bow locker (but cats, can have, have monstrous bow lockers). We have taken to using Duralac on the stainless bolts (in case we want to alter the shank angle).

Jonathan

 

[J Neeves]

Sailaboutvic,

Interesting point about a tandem set-up imposing more load.

I do not think your chain would fail, whatever happened. Tales of brand name chain failing are basically non-existent assuming its of the correct size, from a reputable supplier and that it is not badly corroded. Similarly the shackle should not fail either - a rated, say, 1t shackle should have a minimum break strength in excess of 6t, far higher than the chain, which (to match) would be 8mm or 10mm G30, and if you've gone for a 2t shackle it will have an even higher min break strength 9t-12t (depends on supplier). Swivels are a different issue but as long as its from a reputable supplier, Kong, then it should be secure (I'm not an expert on swivels - do not see the need).

The frequency of yachts dragging is huge, compared to rodes or deck gear failing.

No-one should be using a chain without a snubber and the snubber 10m should be attached to a strong point (and with bad weather I'd be suggesting 2 snubbers as a bridle (to two strong points)).

The question then arises - are the strong points on modern yachts sufficiently strong (don't know) but our yacht can be lifted with a crane and suspended from the 2 bow cleats (I've seen pictures of it being done) - so I'm assuming they are strong enough.

Basically I suspect you are correct - if you have a tandem set up (or even one good anchor set up), chain, no snubber - there could be an issue - but everyone in that situation would know to use snubbers?

But most gales and storms (or all of them) that we experience are in one dominant direction, they might veer through 90 degrees - but not more, so a tight 'V' works. If it were a tropical cyclonic event - we'ed be up a creek, tie to multiple trees with all our anchors out - but as our insurance does not cover us for cyclone/hurricane/typhoon season/geography - we are somewhere else.

But it depends very much on your yacht. A bigger yacht with 2 bow rollers and 2 decent anchors would presumably deploy a 'V' - it would be relatively easy and painless. Someone with one bow roller and a heavy second anchor, stored in a locker, would find it very difficult to deploy from the bow in a tandem. Which is good reason carry a Fortress, or other alloy anchor - they have great holding capacity for light weight.

Jonathan

 

[J Neeves]

Vonasi,

Sorry meant to comment

Communication from windlass/bow roller to helm - cheap walkie talkies with ear piece and mike work a treat when shouting fails. Also useful if both of you are not at the top of the mast at the same time.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hi Jonathan
Most experiences sailor would use a snubber automatically , but after saying that looking around in the anchorage we are in now I think someone need to go and tell a few of these skippers .

Regarding lifting a yacht from the front cleats , I not sure I would want to try that out on our yacht , which reminds me a job for this winter , I think modern yacht lose out big time on that point and on a few others other points come to that .
www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[Storyline]

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As an aside I'd ditch the CQR and replace it with another anchor 'different' to your Rocna but matched to the same sized yacht, so another 20kg but a Spade (maybe think alloy, 10kg), Kobra, Excel (maybe think alloy 10kg), Ultra (wait and the 'new' Rocna or maybe the Boss). The Fortress, alloy Spade and alloy Excel have the added advantage of being demountable (and you could bring back in your luggage if you were visiting) - but an anchor is no use in a locker in pieces!
.....

That sounds a sensible solution. There is no sentimental attachment to the CQR as the original one that looked after us in one severe gale and several 'normal' gales went with the boat when we sold her - it did not seem right to part them
Unlike others on here we do not do any long distance cruising so a variety of anchors would be overkill and compared to others we are part timers spending an average of only 30 - 40 nights at anchor each summer. Think I will go for one new Fortress for the time being and then add another of different design when it reaches the top of the wish list.
Thanks for the advice.

 

[Storyline]

Vonasi,

Sorry meant to comment

Communication from windlass/bow roller to helm - cheap walkie talkies with ear piece and mike work a treat when shouting fails. Also useful if both of you are not at the top of the mast at the same time.

Yes, agree. Swmbo hates shouting or even talking loudly if there are any other boats around so we got a pair of cheap Motorola walkie talkies with headsets. These have a Vox function which means they transmit when you speak. Very useful as you do not need your hands.

 

[noelex]

Walkie talkies will be of no use in winds of 60+ knots or more. When the wind is strong enough to make the skin on your face flap talking or shouting into a walkie talkie would be useless.

+1

Communication between the bow and helm is a problem in bad conditions. A lot of systems that work well in moderate winds break down in the terrible conditions when you need them most.

I am not sure what the perfect answer is, but having plenty of communication options and a well rehearsed team that can anticipate what is needed helps a lot.

In the severest conditions a torch used as a hand signal or clicks from keying the transmit button are two of the best. Keep in mind that the bow person will be sitting down (because you cannot stand in these conditions) and at least one hand will be used for hanging on.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Walkie talkies will be of no use in winds of 60+ knots or more. When the wind is strong enough to make the skin on your face flap talking or shouting into a walkie talkie would be useless. The wind noise rushing across the microphone would drown anything out - try sticking your head out of a car window and talking on your mobile while blasting down the motorway and see if anyone can hear you?
Any earpiece would be whipped out of the ear in such winds. Also in the middle of all the drama who has time to go below and pick up walkie talkies, untangle the ear pieces, find something to clip the walkie talkie onto etc. Next you'll be suggesting that we put on life jackets and harnesses first while the boat continues to drag down onto the rocks.

On our 33 ft boat in 70+ knots the only way to communicate was for the person on the bow to come back to the helm and shout directly in their ear!

Vonasi
You made some good points about walkie talkies and how useless they would be in then type of winds , also the urgently of time in situation where every second count , but if you could try and not get people back up and not make an argument out of every thing ,by that I mean you seen what happened lately in a few of the other thread , other wise this very good thread which for once is interesting to read , will just end up being another one of them name calling thread and no good use will come out of it .
Do you not agree ?

I am not have a pop you .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[sailaboutvic]

+1

Communication between the bow and helm is a problem in bad conditions. A lot of systems that work well in moderate winds break down in the terrible conditions when you need them most.

I am not sure what the perfect answer is, but having plenty of communication options and a well rehearsed team that can anticipate what is needed helps a lot.

In the severest conditions a torch used as a hand signal or clicks from keying the transmit button are two of the best. Keep in mind that the bow person will be sitting down (because you cannot stand in these conditions) and at least one hand will be used for hanging on.

Not sure about a touch but a whistle could be a good idea , you don't have to hold it .
don't use a dog whistle if you have a dog on board ,



www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[Storyline]

Pre-arranged hand signals work well too and are free and even more silent than walkie talkies but they don't work in the pitch black. Unfortunately walkie talkies don't work in very strong winds either and to be honest if you are dragging anchors in 70+ knot winds then the last thing you are worried about is upsetting the neighbours with a bit of shouting!

Never mind shouting I think I would be screaming in absolute terror in winds of 70+ knots !

The fastest sustained wind speed we have ever had at anchor was in the mid 50's which lasted for an hour or two. Interestingly there were no gusts, just a steady wind on the instruments. There was very little fetch in the anchorage so no real waves but the wind was ripping the water off the surface so there was spray everywhere. There is no way I wanted to go in the cockpit never mind go to the bow.

 

[Storyline]

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.....
Maybe the way I write comes across as slightly aggressive to you and a few others - is there any way to indicate that I am writing with a smile on my face and possibly a little bit or irony sometimes?

Yes, use the smileys. I think the subtle difference between a smile and a wink when you are teasing/joshing someone can save all sorts of misunderstandings.

I sometimes go on a UAV forum and that is populated with endless numbers of testosterone fuelled geeks. If it was not for the smileys there would be outright war on there !

ps, just in case you have not discovered it there is no need to press the smiley icon, just type a colon or semi colon and a closing bracket and the forum software does the rest

 

[sailaboutvic]

Thank you for 'not having a pop' at me!

I never intend to insult anyone and in fact none of my posts have any name calling or mud slinging unless some has been flung my way in the first place. I purely point out facts as I know them and repeat experiences that I have had and then sit back and hopefully wait for an interesting debate on them, which I do believe is the point of a forum. Unfortunately there are some on here who seem to hang around all day looking for a fight. I also like a good fight but I never start one! I don't suffer fools gladly and will tell you that you are a fool if you behave like an idiot. The chap who suggested walkie talkies wasn't being an idiot and I apologise to him if my reply came across as though I thought he was. He had obviously never been in 70+ knot winds and tried to communicate - so if he says walkie talkies are a good idea and my experiences in strong winds say otherwise then if I point that out hopefully it will help others think about and prepare for the day when they are dragging two anchors in 70+ knots.

Maybe the way I write comes across as slightly aggressive to you and a few others - is there any way to indicate that I am writing with a smile on my face and possibly a little bit or irony sometimes?

If you read some of my posting , you will see some of mine are also miss read but in my case , it my own fault because my spelling and grammar isn't up to scratch , lucky most know that on here and make allowances for it , thanks guy ,
Now and then an interesting thread turns up which can very easily turn into a battle of words , so let get on with what this thread all about maybe we can all learn some thing interesting .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[J Neeves]

Confess to have not stood on deck in 70 knots, in fact never had 70 knots.

But if we were going on deck in anything like those conditions we would have full foul weather gear with hood lashed right down (and I suspect goggles) - but I'm not going to drive along a road at 35 mph in the rain with my head out of the window, full wet weather gear on, goggles and try to use a mobile phone , I fear being locked up for insanity. I have never tried to move from an anchorage in anything over 35 knots, walkie talkies work well there - when its over 35 knots we hope not to have to move and hope there is not to be a first time! But we have used hand signals.

I think the most interesting comment - is who remembers any of this when it is, say 50 knots. We sat out 55 knots only a few months ago (that's 55 knots at the masthead). We were a bit apprehensive I was all geared up, full wet weather gear etc. It never crossed my mind to take a video - and how I now regret it. We had plenty of time, we had nothing else to do (except sit and watch). Odd how priorities change! and hindsight is so useful.

Jonathan

Edit: Sailaboutvic - do not apologise for your English, I wish we english speakers spoke other languages as well as you foreigners, your posts have been perfectly comprehensible and if I'm in doubt, I'll ask

Edit: Vonasi - I was in no way offended by your rejection of my idea, but then I've never had to change an anchorage in 70 knots. But we do not like yelling at each other when I lift the anchor or I'm at the masthead (and we smile wryly when others do it) and walkie talkies really do work (upto 35 knots) as inevitably hand signals do not cater for all eventualities. What we have found is that lifting an anchor after a big blow is that it takes considerably longer to retrieve than normal - because it is so well dug in - but we anticipate this now (but this really only happens with modern anchors - digging in well).