Sandy
Well-known member
When you say a blow torch, would a gas powered soldering iron work or does it need something a lot stronger?
Anchor woes
- Thread starter zoidberg
- Start date
Neeves
Well-known member
I just use, as we carried one, an Aldi blow torch that you use to make creme brûlée (as I assumed everyone made creme boulle on their yacht
). You used to be able to buy little blow torches, like a rather powerful cigarette lighter - they would do. I'm not sure that a gas soldering iron would work as getting the tip of the iron to transfer enough heat might not work (though your gas soldering iron might be better than mine).It does not need to be a 'real' blow torch.
You obviously need to be able to hold the shackle when you heat the threaded portion, Mole wrench works.
You can also buy cheap blow torch attachments to the little BBQ/Korean/Japanese stove cylinders, the sort that come in a pack of 3 cylinders. The blow torches are good for short usage (like freeing up a shackle pin) but not so good as to melt lead out of a Spade anchor (which takes a long time and lot of heat).
Jonathan
I bought this in a Chinese supermarket, it was along with their BBQ stuff (I think its sold to help start a charcoal BBQ). But I have seen them in Bunnings - sorry but I don't know the name of a single UK DIY shop. It cost about stg5 and clips onto the pictured gas cylinder. If you look carefully, top centre of the picture you can see the plastic has started to melt - that was when I was using it to melt lead and had used a lot of heat. It works well to free up shackles but has quite a big jet of flame so not so good for focussed detailed work. You just open the valve, knurled knob, and pull the trigger - it lights instantly.
On the other side of the blow torch is a 'name' or label 'HS SKY-501'
I'm not sure that it would meet H&S approval.
The Aldi blow torch is much smaller and better for detailed work. Both are good if you need heat at the top of a mast.
I have found both useful, shrink covers on cables and rope, freeing up bolts secured with Loctite, freeing up 'corroded bolts - usual stuff where you need heat - and they are cheap. If you need a lot of heat, melting lead out of a Spade anchor - buy a better blow torch (which I also have for that application). When you are melting lead you want a bit more space between you and the liquid metal which you don't get with this device.
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wonkywinch
Well-known member
We're off to the Whitsundays for a couple of weeks next month. Just reading the charter co brief and I see the Aussies do things differently there where it's perfectly acceptable to use your family as anchors.
Does anyone know how a 20kg Rocna compares to a 6 year old of roughly similar weight?
Does anyone know how a 20kg Rocna compares to a 6 year old of roughly similar weight?
Roberto
Well-known member
Kids may be worse than useless. I once was retrieving the stern anchor by hand, I slipped in the water and managed to grab the stern ladder, there I was hanging with one hand on the boat one hand with several kgs of underwater metal, then 3yo daughter began laughing, "hahahaha mom come and see, dad fell in the water, hahahaha so funny".
zoidberg
Well-known member
Was it then she learned some untranslatable colloquialisms....?
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
There have been counterfeit Crosby shackles circulating in Europe. Industry safety alerts were issued. The shackle strength is about 40% of the stated WLL.
You can easily tell because the counterfeit Crosby logo forged into the shackle is “CROSBY”, all capitalised. The original spelling is “Crosby”.
The alert is available if you Google.
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
Good effort Zoidberg, worth replicating just for the weight saving alone. I have 80m of 10mm, heavy.
zoidberg
Well-known member
It's my understanding that there's a limited supply of 6mm G80 HDG chain presently available, largely due to the limited interest in the primary market of 'lifting'. OTOH, there's a lack of interest among yottie suppliers, with the old lie 'There's no call for that, sir.'
I found after some digging and delving that one very well-known UK South Coast rigging specialist - the Crosby chain authorised retail supplier - 'could get the product from the producer' but at 50% price hike above that of a small local lifting specialist company..... who no doubt imposed their own markup. Same source!
Another prominent yottie equipment supplier, from whom I'd purchased rigging and other kit, stated baldly 'we can't get that in the UK'.
Simply bolleaux....
I have the feeling - due to intense competition among primary suppliers of chain and bits in Europe - that if yottie types like usasked for demanded it, then primary suppliers would swiftly 'find some stock', and secondary outlets would have little difficulty ( or excuse ) in saying 'yes, it's available'.
A Google Search discovers the names of the important Regional Managers. Pushing from both ends works. It also saves US money.
I found after some digging and delving that one very well-known UK South Coast rigging specialist - the Crosby chain authorised retail supplier - 'could get the product from the producer' but at 50% price hike above that of a small local lifting specialist company..... who no doubt imposed their own markup. Same source!
Another prominent yottie equipment supplier, from whom I'd purchased rigging and other kit, stated baldly 'we can't get that in the UK'.
Simply bolleaux....
I have the feeling - due to intense competition among primary suppliers of chain and bits in Europe - that if yottie types like us
A Google Search discovers the names of the important Regional Managers. Pushing from both ends works. It also saves US money.
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Neeves
Well-known member
Here is one alert on counterfeit shackles.
https://www.thecrosbygroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/crosby-shackles_OSHA.pdf
As clear as mud
Peerless had an issue with counterfeit Peerlift shackles.
I have seen unmarked shackles with green pins being marked with metal punches 'Van Beest'.
There are hundreds of shackle makers in China, maybe thousands. It really would not be difficult to add a brand name (Crosby) and paint a shackle pin blue, or orange. I have found 2 shackle makers in China who make shackles as good as Crosby et al. I don't know how consistent they are. But the shackles are not branded and look identical to other unbranded shackles. I'm not going to recommend anything of which I am unsure.
Mosty, all?, 'retailers' of lifting kit will test at random a batch they have bought, like I have tested all the shackles I recommend.
Buy from a reputable retailer, even then caution is needed - I don't recommend CMP's Titan Black Pin shackles because I am concerned at the absence of testing by both the manufacturer and CMP and also concerned on CMP's marketing policies. Fortunately their are plenty of alternatives to Titan Black Pin shackles, from Crosby, Peerless, Campbell etc.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-known member
And another alert
Source for Grade B Peerless Peer-Lift shackles - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
The PS article mentioned is one I wrote.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-known member
I believe that the 6mm G80 gal chain you bought is/was part of Gennebo's portfolio for the aquamarine market. I might expect more stock in close proximity to the aquamarine industry - though this would involve someone trucking it from some lonely glen to locations where alternative markets might exist. I've made (correction - I've acted as QC manager) for 6 rodes and (because its too expensive for me to maintain the voluntary role) turned down 2 enquiries for 'down sized rodes' primarily 6mm and 8mm. I don't advertise (but I have included the concept in a series of lectures of which I was part that a defunct magazine hosted) - I'm contacted through word of mouth - there is a market, but its difficult to service - due to availability of stock. Who, in Australia, wants to ship 100m of 6mm HT chain from Europe (and pay for an extortionate new gypsy). The other problem is that installing a downsized rode - the chandler is happy to make a sale of chain - but no one offers support for the complete and matching components to make up a rode, large end link, shackles, snubber etc - you are on your own.
Its frustrating - there is an opportunity which none of the major players, Lewmar, Jimmy Green, Knox appear to find of interest. But I am biased - and I accept my interpretation obviously does not meet the profit margins of people working 'at the coal face'.
However extending the gripe - simply buying a Class B shackle, one where a WLL of 2t for a 3/8th" shackle, is a major exercise for something that should be standard for any chandler who sells anchors. If they will not stock decent shackles from reputable suppliers its totally unrealistic to expect them to market 'down sized' HT gal chain, enlarged links, snubbers, decent snubber hooks etc.
If I were 25/30 I'd look at it seriously
As Zoidberg says - part of the fault is ourselves - we don't make enough noise when the product we want is not available - we make do.
Jonathan
boomerangben
Well-known member
The question for remains though, how much do we need G70 chain? If as you say Neeves a load of 600kg in a rode is so uncomfortable then why need a rode stronger than that? We know that peak loads are easily ameliorated using a snubber or mixed rode. Agreed, a bigger boat needs a bigger chain but also has a better ability to carry the weight and of course have a windlass and electricity to power it. But for the case in point here, I’m not sure we need stronger chain. We just need a better understanding of how much load we put in our rodes. Looking at Jimmy Green’s website, G40 6mm Lewmar galv chain has a MBL of 2400kgs with a WLL of 600kg. That’s a safety factor of 4. Fine if you are lifting things, but is it not a bit over the top for anchoring, particularly if you have a snubber to dampen peak loads?
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Neeves
Well-known member
Good point,
But snubbers fail, they have a finite life and life is determined by the number and severity of stretch cycles. If you increase the ability of the snubber to accept more 'severe' cycles it will not stretch so much - and will not dampen the peak loads sufficiently.
We have had 3 snubbers fail.
What happens when you decide to cut and run, you need to retrieve the chain, the rode gets shorter and shorter the severity of the snatches increase.
This article is about all of this, severe and unplanned for storm, the desire to change the snubber, a chain hook that was inadequate.....
Safety at Sea: Surviving a Powerful Storm in the Med | Cruising World
The reality is that most yachts are equipped against a fairly standard spread sheet quoted by most of the equipment suppliers, like Lewmar. The quality of the chain is never mentioned but assumed to be G30. Reports of chain failure, breaking (or even stretching) are like hen's teeth - suggesting that despite all the abuse a chain is subject to and all the questions raised on the background to the spread sheets - the spread sheets have it right (with a safety margin).
So building on that and having the ability to introduce elasticity to replace catenary with elasticity why not lighter chain of the same strength.
Less weight in the bow, a smaller locker for the chain, less need for a large electric motor, the ability to use smaller power cables, a smaller battery - all costing less. The advantages are greater for a light weight yacht - in fact the advantages for an older, heavier yacht might be much less marked. And what has been happening to the yachts most people buy - they have become lighter as the accountants have squeezed out excess weight and manufacturers have taken advantage of use of better manufacturing techniques and materials.
The idea is not to have stronger chain. If the spreadsheet says your yacht needs 8mm chain, MBL of 3,200kg then why not the same strength of chain which is possible if you use high tensile 6mm chain. G80 6mm has a MBL of 4.8t. Now - if you galvanise the G80 6mm chain you will lose tensile strength but it will still be as strong, or stronger, than the 8mm it replaces. This then demands a better snubber - and to reduce the speed at which the snubber ages - have a longer snubber.
The abuse to which anchor chains are subject is unknown but I did a test using a well known chain hook, well known in America, and the hook itself caused the chain to fail prematurely.
Snubber Chain Hooks Revisited - Practical Sailor
The work was a success, though I'm branded as not liking the supplier of the hook - they withdrew the hook, quietly - a win!
but I don't receive samples to test any more. Chain makers and specifiers need to factor in 'abuse', read that article of a storm in the Med - the hook that bent is marketed by a company with the highest reputation, Wichard - yet it has the same inadequate characteristics of the hook we tested in the link in the preceding paragraph. High Tensile chain, having a higher yield, will better withstand some abuse than the more common place G30. The another major factor of abuse is the snubber, many yachts I see don't use a snubber, at all. Most of the other yachts I see use a snubber that is, being generous, 2m long - I advocate a minimum length of, roughly, deck length (for everyday usage) with an ability to extend the snubber by a factor of 2. Most catamarans I see use a bridle that has minimal snubbing ability - it is simply too beefy, it will last a long time - but it lacks elasticity.
I think members of YBW know about snubbers, I think many use long snubbers, some of them tell me in PMs - but not everyone is a believer (even though I ram it down their throats every 2-4 months (and invoke the ire of many who complain of repetition). YBW members are a canny lot - sadly we are a small proportion of those that sail - some people simply don't even know what a snubber is.
There is a lot of ground to cover
But I am optimistic - we have broken the back of the 'bigger is better' anchor argument (I think) - we are moving in the right direction.
Jonathan
thinwater
Well-known member
Nobody every takes the Fortress off the chain, and Fortress anchors are common as pigeons here. It will do not harm to leave it attached.
I would have thought G43 would have been plenty, but I would have been using 1/4-inch, which is a tiny bit bigger. With a rope rode it will never see 1000 pounds. One of the Fortress anchors would have been an FX-11, plenty for a kedge and easier to take out, and I might have skipped the chain on that one, for easier handling (I used a covered Dyneema leader on my Fortress kedge on my PDQ).
BTW, always deploy at least 30 feet of rope to spread the energy absorption. If you deploy 0-10 feet of rope it can be VERY hard on the rope portion, since all of the shock absorption is focused on a short length. There have been failures in this circumstance. It's like using a very short rope snubber--it's hard on the snubber.
But that will hold you!
I would have thought G43 would have been plenty, but I would have been using 1/4-inch, which is a tiny bit bigger. With a rope rode it will never see 1000 pounds. One of the Fortress anchors would have been an FX-11, plenty for a kedge and easier to take out, and I might have skipped the chain on that one, for easier handling (I used a covered Dyneema leader on my Fortress kedge on my PDQ).
BTW, always deploy at least 30 feet of rope to spread the energy absorption. If you deploy 0-10 feet of rope it can be VERY hard on the rope portion, since all of the shock absorption is focused on a short length. There have been failures in this circumstance. It's like using a very short rope snubber--it's hard on the snubber.
But that will hold you!
boomerangben
Well-known member
Thanks Neeves for sharing the posts. Interesting as you say a lot of ground to cover.
First of, an anchor rode only properly spec’d if it gives the skipper a good nights sleep. That means getting to sleep without being thrown around and then waking up where they went to bed. So there is very much a personal choice aspect.
I get that if a builder is selling a new boat they have to supply a suitable set of ground tackle which will take abuse and assume a basic level of anchoring knowledge (throw 5/4/3 x depth over the side and tie on a cleat). For that use the spreadsheets are clearly right as you suggest. But they might also be right if a lesser chain is used, ie the safety factor is higher than needed. Could it be the spreadsheets are based on the catenary effect rather than tensile strength?
The weight of chain argument is not lost on me either and quite frankly I would advocate as light a rode as possible for all vessels, simply because weight is not good - it costs more (unless you go exotic!), it doesn’t help trim nor performance and requires more effort, electrical or human to recover.
But my real point in all this if the load in your rode exceeds a relatively small figure, the anchorage would be considered too uncomfortable to remain in without changing the rode. This is what I remember you mention in a previous thread on anchor testing as being about 600kg. My point is, that if you get towards that figure in a boat less than (I can’t remember what size of boat you were using) 42’, you are going to want to do something about it, especially if it’s a lightly built one. In other words, the crew would become the limiting factor, not the ultimate strength of the rode. There needs then to be discernment between skippers who have basic understanding and those who are prepared to correctly use a highly engineered solution - you need to use an engineered solution correctly.
So how do you design the ultimate rode? To my mind it is about maximising the use of elastic textile elements. This reduces the overall tensions and therefore the required strength of all the elements of the system. Moreover textiles are cheaper than even basic grade chain so having spare snubbers is going to be cheaper than a high grade chain. Abrasion is a significant concern of course so having chain only in the water is a clear attraction. So your idea of snubbers laid on deck has to be the way to go. Having two (or more) set up for storm conditions would simple and cheap. That then leaves the chain hook, which is clearly of concern - they seem to be the weak point. I have to say the simple clevis hook just looks plain wrong to me. Chain shorteners made by Crosby and others are rated to the strength of G100 chain and available for 6, 8, 10 and 12mm chain might be a solution although I’m not sure how well they would fair in an marine environment. But they don’t need to be submerged if using deck snubbers although that doesn’t make them immune to corrosion.
Anyway all food for thought and forgive me for indulging in a fascinating subject that can very quickly get quite complicated and wide ranging
First of, an anchor rode only properly spec’d if it gives the skipper a good nights sleep. That means getting to sleep without being thrown around and then waking up where they went to bed. So there is very much a personal choice aspect.
I get that if a builder is selling a new boat they have to supply a suitable set of ground tackle which will take abuse and assume a basic level of anchoring knowledge (throw 5/4/3 x depth over the side and tie on a cleat). For that use the spreadsheets are clearly right as you suggest. But they might also be right if a lesser chain is used, ie the safety factor is higher than needed. Could it be the spreadsheets are based on the catenary effect rather than tensile strength?
The weight of chain argument is not lost on me either and quite frankly I would advocate as light a rode as possible for all vessels, simply because weight is not good - it costs more (unless you go exotic!), it doesn’t help trim nor performance and requires more effort, electrical or human to recover.
But my real point in all this if the load in your rode exceeds a relatively small figure, the anchorage would be considered too uncomfortable to remain in without changing the rode. This is what I remember you mention in a previous thread on anchor testing as being about 600kg. My point is, that if you get towards that figure in a boat less than (I can’t remember what size of boat you were using) 42’, you are going to want to do something about it, especially if it’s a lightly built one. In other words, the crew would become the limiting factor, not the ultimate strength of the rode. There needs then to be discernment between skippers who have basic understanding and those who are prepared to correctly use a highly engineered solution - you need to use an engineered solution correctly.
So how do you design the ultimate rode? To my mind it is about maximising the use of elastic textile elements. This reduces the overall tensions and therefore the required strength of all the elements of the system. Moreover textiles are cheaper than even basic grade chain so having spare snubbers is going to be cheaper than a high grade chain. Abrasion is a significant concern of course so having chain only in the water is a clear attraction. So your idea of snubbers laid on deck has to be the way to go. Having two (or more) set up for storm conditions would simple and cheap. That then leaves the chain hook, which is clearly of concern - they seem to be the weak point. I have to say the simple clevis hook just looks plain wrong to me. Chain shorteners made by Crosby and others are rated to the strength of G100 chain and available for 6, 8, 10 and 12mm chain might be a solution although I’m not sure how well they would fair in an marine environment. But they don’t need to be submerged if using deck snubbers although that doesn’t make them immune to corrosion.
Anyway all food for thought and forgive me for indulging in a fascinating subject that can very quickly get quite complicated and wide ranging
Tranona
Well-known member
I think you are right as chain size recommendations are based on "bigger is better" and catenary is valuable. Essentially up to 16m and about 20 tonnes displacement there are only 3 sizes - small, medium, large (6/7mm, 8mm. 10mm) jimmygreen.com/content/70-anchor-chain-and-rope-size-guide Note that the triggers suggested for going up a size are displacement and overall length and nowhere does it consider windage or potential loads vs strength of rode. Also no mention of catenary, but there is a rather odd statement that there is a trend toward "heavier anchors and higher holding power" as factors in chain choice. While the latter is true it is not because of heavier anchors!
Neeves
Well-known member
There is a very restricted range of chain sizes, as you say 6mm, 8mm, 10mm, 12/13mm but we do have these chain sizes in different strengths, G30, G40/43, G70 and the newest kid on the block G80 from Gunnebo. I did find a HT 4mm chain from a reputable supplier - but there were no connectors, at all, that would fit the chain - so I could not work out how 'we' could use the product - and could not work out how anyone else could use the product either. A drum winch would work - but shackles etc....nothing. Increased strength does nothing for catenary but for the discerning owner the two factors strength and size (= weight, = catenary) offers a range for the rode - add in the ability to use elasticity (but you would need to be most discerning, a member here - and be commissioning a new yacht (otherwise it might be really expensive to change).
There is a catenary mind set, or the mind set is really heavier chain is good - which needs to be altered to consideration of energy transfer, or dampening etc etc.
As someone pointed out reducing the ability to use only catenary in favour of elasticity saves money, as well as weight. One might think as we are a parsimonious lot - money, or less of it, might be a significant motivator
There is a need for more quantitative work. One of the restrictions though is that most owners have no idea of the weight of their yacht - they know what the specification might be but will only have a vague idea of the weight they have added, water, fuel, food, crew, washing machine, deep freeze etc.
Jonathan