Anchor setup for serious crusing - anchor size for 25 foot, 2 tons (4500 pounds) yachts

[boomerangben]

What is entertaining about these threads is that there are relatively few who engage, many are extremely experienced and have honed their solutions to suit them. We are probably not a true representation of the anchoring population. Would I change my anchor based on what is said here? No. Would I sleep well if I was lucky enough to be a guest of any of those posters on here with varying solutions (and vociferous opponents to others)? Yes I would. Because their experience matters and if they sleep well with their solution then so should any of their guests.
I read a slightly out of date Classic Boat magazine with a lovely new retro weekender motor boat (sacrilege I know but I do appreciate a nice looking vessel regardless of type). Very pretty from stern to foredeck only to then notice the large stainless anchor (it doesn’t matter what type) with matching chain and swivel direct on the anchor, along with large stainless ding plates on the stem. Just plain ugly and for me, ruined the whole look of the vessel. It looked wrong. So here’s another factor to mull over on an anchor thread. How does an anchor add or detract from the aesthetic?

 

[geem]

What is entertaining about these threads is that there are relatively few who engage, many are extremely experienced and have honed their solutions to suit them. We are probably not a true representation of the anchoring population. Would I change my anchor based on what is said here? No. Would I sleep well if I was lucky enough to be a guest of any of those posters on here with varying solutions (and vociferous opponents to others)? Yes I would. Because their experience matters and if they sleep well with their solution then so should any of their guests.
I read a slightly out of date Classic Boat magazine with a lovely new retro weekender motor boat (sacrilege I know but I do appreciate a nice looking vessel regardless of type). Very pretty from stern to foredeck only to then notice the large stainless anchor (it doesn’t matter what type) with matching chain and swivel direct on the anchor, along with large stainless ding plates on the stem. Just plain ugly and for me, ruined the whole look of the vessel. It looked wrong. So here’s another factor to mull over on an anchor thread. How does an anchor add or detract from the aesthetic?

Completely irrelevant to me. The anchor needs to work. End of.

 

[vyv_cox]

All the above shenanigans and gyrations are attempts to solve a problem, which create their on problems, which didn't need to be there in the first place.

Good design can ensure that an anchor comes up already oriented properly to fit its place in the hawse-hole or bow roller. In fact, that WAS done for celebrated designs such as the Admiralty Pattern, then Danforth, then Fortress.

As others have found, it's truly difficult to 're-invent the wheel' in a different shape.

So you are telling us that the ability of an anchor to self-stow is of greater value than to hold the boat reliably? I would use none of them as my primary anchor. I have used a Fortress as such on the day I bought it, as a trial. It dragged twice on a hard seabed in very light wind

 

[thinwater]

Don't try this in a crowded anchorage - use a Boomerang, it reduces the palpitations of your neighbours.

J

Why? I was anchored, I pulled forward to break out the anchor, and so the one place I KNOW there is room is to back where I was just anchored. Heck, just let it drift back. That is generarlly all it takes, for me. Let the boat drift back while the last 10 feet come up, rather than being in a big hurry to motor out.

 

[vyv_cox]

Let the boat drift back while the last 10 feet come up, rather than being in a big hurry to motor out.

We are usually trying to escape all the people we have annoyed!?

 

[Farmer Piles]

Yep, boathook at the ready to fight and fend them off!!

 

[Farmer Piles]

Sort of on topic. Re, "The Scillies Event"
I know a young guy, very experienced sailor who was on Scilly when that storm hit. A 35ft yacht, or thereabouts, one experienced crew and two female guests who had never been boating before. They had seen the forecast for bad weather so headed to St Marys and picked up a harbour mooring. When the forecast said it was going to be bad they also used their tender to put an anchor out - no idea what make or model - as insurance.
That night when it blew there was nothing they could do, he even had the engine running and still they were blown onto rocks. They called Mayday and the coastguard said that if they were not in imminent danger of loss of life they would have to wait as so many boats were in worse trouble. It was a hideous wait with the boat bashing on the shore and windblown waves crashing over them. They were airlifted off eventually.
The boat wasn't too badly damaged as it turned out and they were all shaken but alright. I doubt that the two girls will be keen to go boating again though.
It was a hair raising tale he told me. Thought provoking too.

 

[geem]

Sort of on topic. Re, "The Scillies Event"
I know a young guy, very experienced sailor who was on Scilly when that storm hit. A 35ft yacht, or thereabouts, one experienced crew and two female guests who had never been boating before. They had seen the forecast for bad weather so headed to St Marys and picked up a harbour mooring. When the forecast said it was going to be bad they also used their tender to put an anchor out - no idea what make or model - as insurance.
That night when it blew there was nothing they could do, he even had the engine running and still they were blown onto rocks. They called Mayday and the coastguard said that if they were not in imminent danger of loss of life they would have to wait as so many boats were in worse trouble. It was a hideous wait with the boat bashing on the shore and windblown waves crashing over them. They were airlifted off eventually.
The boat wasn't too badly damaged as it turned out and they were all shaken but alright. I doubt that the two girls will be keen to go boating again though.
It was a hair raising tale he told me. Thought provoking too.

That's the last place they should have gone. That anchorage is very open and has considerable fetch. I was in the Scillies the day before. The forecast models had the low passing directly over the Scillies and the updates had slight variations suggesting slightly North or south of the islands. There was no certainty that any one anchorage would give protection from the winds and waves as the wind was certainly going to clock as is passed over. We took the decision to run for cover to Helford the day before. At least 50 boats took the same decision.

 

[MathiasW]

Just two days ago here in Saint Martin we had the wind change direction so that it is now more onshore wind, with slightly increased swell. So, perhaps a little over 1 metre swell and gusts up to 22 kn. So not a lot. Bit rolly, but otherwise pathetic. But still, at least three boats dragged. Two of them were on mooring buoys in extremely shallow water, and one was in the lagoon, where I do not know how it was anchoring. But it is also shallow water there. At least one is now on the rock. Its mooring buoy is still at the original place, though.

This just re-emphasises my experience as well as my analysis that it is better not to be in too shallow water when swell or gusts are getting stronger. Their impact there is so much higher than when anchoring in deeper water (assuming being exposed to the same swell and gusts that is). And I am not talking about the surf...

And most boats here do not use a snubber, or if so, it is just a metre long, so almost useless.

I have been tinkering to add support for other languages to my app and one of the biggest hurdles is to find the correct nautical words, like snubber, bridle, windage area etc. The way I go about it now is to search for web pages in the respective language that explain the process of anchoring and then translate them using DeepL. It is quite interesting how different these pages are in the various languages. In some languages it is impossible to find any mentioning of a snubber at all, whilst others cover this reasonably well.

Cheers, Mathias

www.anchorchaincalculator.com

 

[zoidberg]

So you are telling us that the ability of an anchor to self-stow is of greater value than to hold the boat reliably? I would use none of them as my primary anchor. I have used a Fortress as such on the day I bought it, as a trial. It dragged twice on a hard seabed in very light wind

Not at all, Vyv.

Your comment above is built around at least one popular 'logical fallacy' - and probably qualifies for two, or three, more such 'prime accolades'...

common logical fallacies

 

[vyv_cox]

Not at all, Vyv.

Your comment above is built around at least one popular 'logical fallacy' - and probably qualifies for two, or three, more such 'prime accolades'...

common logical fallacies

One logical fallacy good, three logical fallacies better???

 

[dunedin]

Sort of on topic. Re, "The Scillies Event"
I know a young guy, very experienced sailor who was on Scilly when that storm hit. A 35ft yacht, or thereabouts, one experienced crew and two female guests who had never been boating before. They had seen the forecast for bad weather so headed to St Marys and picked up a harbour mooring. When the forecast said it was going to be bad they also used their tender to put an anchor out - no idea what make or model - as insurance.
That night when it blew there was nothing they could do, he even had the engine running and still they were blown onto rocks. They called Mayday and the coastguard said that if they were not in imminent danger of loss of life they would have to wait as so many boats were in worse trouble. It was a hideous wait with the boat bashing on the shore and windblown waves crashing over them. They were airlifted off eventually.
The boat wasn't too badly damaged as it turned out and they were all shaken but alright. I doubt that the two girls will be keen to go boating again though.
It was a hair raising tale he told me. Thought provoking too.

It was well forecasted in advance. I was watching the forecast develop in the days before, sitting on anchor in Scotland.
If it had been me there I would have headed back to the mainland rather than try to ride out that forecast in St Mary’s, amongst a crowd of other boats. And never heard of putting an anchor out when on a mooring.
Plan A might have been head elsewhere to shelter.
It doesn’t matter your anchor gear when others are dragging close by

 

[Farmer Piles]

I agree, I think I would have run for it too. I did exactly that in August, nothing as severe but 20-30kts of northerly forecast, no fun being on Scilly in that. I tucked in under St Mawes and had an extra couple of days there.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Yet according to the YBW article: -

Storm tactics at anchor: Surviving gales in Scilly - Yachting Monthly

Numerous boats dragged anchors, broke free of moorings or went aground, though many more weathered the storm unscathed.

 

[geem]

Yet according to the YBW article: -

Storm tactics at anchor: Surviving gales in Scilly - Yachting Monthly

We had friends who stayed. They experienced 70kt gusts. They didn't drag but the boat next to them went on the rocks. We also heard others saying it wasn't well forecast. It was very well forecast. In my opinion, 50 yacht voting to leave for better shelter was the right thing to do. Staying was nieve or foolhardy. Take you pick. Moorings dragged. Boat hit each other. A mooring is a poor solution in those conditions as there is often little elasticity and lots of potential chafing.
It is always better to be elsewhere than in the thick of it when bad weather if forecast and shelter is not guaranteed. If the wind was going to be from one direction it would have been possible to ride it out with a second anchor without concern but not for this small ferocious fast moving system when the location of the centre over the Scillies was uncertain

 

[zoidberg]

If it had been me there I would have headed back to the mainland rather than try to ride out that forecast in St Mary’s, amongst a crowd of other boats.

A good friend was there, and did 'zackly that. He came wheeching back around The Lizard and scuttled up the Truro River as far as he could get - which was Malpas Marina.

He tells me that, even there, they had a wild night, but on closer inquiry, it turned out they had a riotous 'simulated lockin' in the adjacent 'Heron Inn', where they sought shelter, humanitarian aid, with sausage and chips.....

 

[Neeves]

The comment has been made that anchors are self stowing. This is correct the shank fluke angles are not much different to the bent link/boomerang angles and work in exactly the same way.

Our windlass Maxwell retrieves at roughly 1m per 2 seconds, its amazingly fast, so fast its difficult to see the marks (at night in the rain).

I don't think they use a Maxwell windlass, but they did not worry about the anchor arriving on the bow roller upside down either.


But if your anchor arrives at the bow roller reversed it will not commence self righting until the shank is on the bow roller - the shanks might be 1m long. The anchor has to rotate, through 180 degrees, within 2 seconds. This is all going to put unnecessary strain on the windlass and having a wildly gyrating anchor on the bow roller is not good, however you look at it.

Obviously there are ways to mitigate the issues - stop the windlass when the anchor just clears the water is but one solution - though frankly if there is a dragging yacht bearing down on you, or its simply rain hard and the wind is up the last thing you want to do is wait patiently for the anchor to self align.

If you have NormanS' bent link or our boomerang the alignment is made before the anchor reaches the bow roller - problem solved.

This, below, is a large, crewed charter cat in the Greek islands. They have no chance of their anchor arriving at the bow roller correctly orientated. The twists in the chain mean the anchor arrives any which way - and illustrates why the swivel is useless - it does not remove twists in the chain - with out some form of human intervention. We know the skipper and crew lack access to YBW and don't know about the Cox 3 link solution, note the swivel attachment



Now, see below.... are you going to wait patiently for the anchor to correctly align or will you retrieve, house on bow roller (any which way) and retreat in good order. And seriously - you are going to allow the yacht to drift backwards so that the anchor can self align......? the yacht will go beam on - in a full gale.




The real world can be tough.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

The Scillies event was a serious lesson and we have some examples of what some people did. I'm in favour of Geem's solution, listen to the forecast and go somewhere where the forecasts are more benign.

What we don't know, and it is not clear in the article, for those that stayed, what failed and what worked. We know yachts ended up on rocks (having obviously dragged) but we don't know what gear they were using. The storm in the Med article has a deeper insight into what went wrong and we can decide what the wish list might have been (better chain hook for one). There are so many unanswered questions and so many of the lessons are not available to us.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

What is entertaining about these threads is that there are relatively few who engage, many are extremely experienced and have honed their solutions to suit them. We are probably not a true representation of the anchoring population. Would I change my anchor based on what is said here? No. Would I sleep well if I was lucky enough to be a guest of any of those posters on here with varying solutions (and vociferous opponents to others)? Yes I would. Because their experience matters and if they sleep well with their solution then so should any of their guests.
I read a slightly out of date Classic Boat magazine with a lovely new retro weekender motor boat (sacrilege I know but I do appreciate a nice looking vessel regardless of type). Very pretty from stern to foredeck only to then notice the large stainless anchor (it doesn’t matter what type) with matching chain and swivel direct on the anchor, along with large stainless ding plates on the stem. Just plain ugly and for me, ruined the whole look of the vessel. It looked wrong. So here’s another factor to mull over on an anchor thread. How does an anchor add or detract from the aesthetic?

Function is what matters, stem to stern. Boats, clothes, cars, what

The comment has been made that anchors are self stowing. This is correct the shank fluke angles are not much different to the bent link/boomerang angles and work in exactly the same way.

Our windlass Maxwell retrieves at roughly 1m per 2 seconds, its amazingly fast, so fast its difficult to see the marks (at night in the rain).

I don't think they use a Maxwell windlass, but they did not worry about the anchor arriving on the bow roller upside down either.
View attachment 149574

But if your anchor arrives at the bow roller reversed it will not commence self righting until the shank is on the bow roller - the shanks might be 1m long. The anchor has to rotate, through 180 degrees, within 2 seconds. This is all going to put unnecessary strain on the windlass and having a wildly gyrating anchor on the bow roller is not good, however you look at it.

Obviously there are ways to mitigate the issues - stop the windlass when the anchor just clears the water is but one solution - though frankly if there is a dragging yacht bearing down on you, or its simply rain hard and the wind is up the last thing you want to do is wait patiently for the anchor to self align.

If you have NormanS' bent link or our boomerang the alignment is made before the anchor reaches the bow roller - problem solved.

This, below, is a large, crewed charter cat in the Greek islands. They have no chance of their anchor arriving at the bow roller correctly orientated. The twists in the chain mean the anchor arrives any which way - and illustrates why the swivel is useless - it does not remove twists in the chain - with out some form of human intervention. We know the skipper and crew lack access to YBW and don't know about the Cox 3 link solution, note the swivel attachment

View attachment 149575

Now, see below.... are you going to wait patiently for the anchor to correctly align or will you retrieve, house on bow roller (any which way) and retreat in good order. And seriously - you are going to allow the yacht to drift backwards so that the anchor can self align......? the yacht will go beam on - in a full gale.

View attachment 149576


The real world can be tough.

Jonathan

First, let me say that I am all in favor of the Boomerang and related concepts. I've used them and they work well, much better than a swivel. Absolutely the best solution IMO. I've seen to many bent, cracked, or jammed swivels, including one of my own. Sure, it is solvable, but why? Turning the anchor is better.

"Breaking out an anchor in a gale" as pictured above is an example of absurd exaggeration. I've been sailing for 45 years and have so far avoided the pictured senaro and am quite certain I will go to my grave having avoided it. But yes, there are times when poor planning makes the whole break-out and get under way thing is difficult. Get a Boomerang. But turning the anchor is probably not the most pressing problem.

I did not mean to imply that backing after weighing is a one-size-fits-all solution. What I want to make clear--and I am correct about this except for a few exceptions--is that NG anchors will align backwards nearly always if motoring forward. If you are aware of this you can solve most of your wrong-way problems. If you motor swiftly forward, the anchor will come up wrong way nearly every time. Just one more bit of sailing know-how.

 

[NormanS]

What thinwater says may be true. I don't know. I've never needed to study the phenomenon. What I do know, is that with modern, high freeboard boats, the bow roller is high above the water, and although going astern may turn the anchor to the correct mode while the anchor is underwater, that effect is lost as soon as the anchor is in the air. Needless to say, this will allow any twist in the chain to turn the anchor anyway.
That is the beauty of a Boomerang or Bent Link. They work when they're actually needed.