Anchor locker leak horror

[Neeves]

I think a 1/2" drain hole is more than adequate - you should not get that much water in there. The trick is making sure it does not block! 2 x 1" holes are goig to allow water in, to me they are massive. Stick with what you have. Just try to lift the chain above the drain hole and leave a space, a little triangular well, so the chain cannot sit in water. I suspect there will always be a tiny puddle. few drains are at the bottom of the locker.

Once you have repaired the 'rot' - and get out on the water, just check that the drain hole is not blocked - your chain will pull in mud and seaweed - both will block the drain hole.

For the future health of your chain - wash the chain and locker with fresh water, whenever you can. On good days lift the lids, you have 2, to allow the locker to dry out.

Wet, muddy chain and wet, muddy chain lockers destroy chains.

Jonathan

 

[macd]

Can anyone explain simply in practical terms (not chemistry!) What the difference is between epoxy and GRP resin and what are the merits of epoxy over GRP for this particular job?

To add to Keth's post, it's easiest to start with what GRP means. It stands for Glass Reinforced Plastic. In other words, something plastic (the cured resin) reinforced by glass filaments. The description 'GRP' does not denote any particular sort of resin, although by far the most common GRP resins are polysters.

The resins in our context are polyester, vinylester or epoxy. Polyester is usual for boats (yours is made of it), although the superior and more expensive vinylester is sometimes used. Epoxy is stronger than either, more waterproof, and lighter (inasmuch as the same amount of resin goes further). The first and last qualities are the reasons it's used to bond the carbon fibre in F1 cars. You may have noticed that they're quite tough.

As Keith wrote, epoxy sticks better, both to itself and to other things: put simply, it makes stronger stuff. I know you didn't want a chemistry leason, but the basic reason is that polyester resins bind only at the ends of each molecule. Epoxy bonds part-way along the molecule, as well. So, at a molecular level, there are more screws.

That said, the descriptor 'epoxy' isn't all that specific. There are literally thousands of types of epoxy. But it's easy enough to find one that will do your job admirably.

 

[Tim O]

Nine months sitting on the hard has certainly destroyed mine! !!!!
Mind you think it was fairly rusty to start with.the survey picked if up so I was banking on replacing at some point just not quite so soon.

Now I just have to work out the chain size and gypsy size......chain seems to be 9.5 mm!!!!!! It's a Simpson Lawrence seawolf windlass......should there be markings on the gypsy to say what size chain it's for?
Think for now I'll stick with the drain hole I have and see how it goes. Advice on raising chain up on some kind of grill sounds good plus raising locker lids and regular washing and checking drain hole.

 

[chrishscorp]

I would suggest cutting out the ply till you find something solid. (does the bulk head completely unscrew/ come out?).
If the boat is a polyester fibreglass boat stick with polyester resin no need for epoxy its expensive. Strip off the bilge locker paint, wash down the grp locker with fresh water so its clean (so you dont abrade contamination into the grp), you will then need to abrade the grp with 60 grit ( dust mask ) to key up what you will be adding. Do not use anything bitumen based as a temporary bodge, resin will not stick to it at all. Give it a good keying, then wipe all the old grp down with acetone so its cleaned and the surface slightly softened. mix up some resin, in these tempretures get a low temp hardner a fan heater will help as well with a gentle heat. build up several layers on the new ply and a couple on the old stuff, you can also paint the new play with grp resin and that will seal it.
Tear ( when dry ) the chopped strand mat rather than cut with scissors the joins will blend in better you could also tear it around the drain hole, assumes you can unblock it. Plenty of videos on youtube on fibreglassing im sure, as has already been mentioned.
Hope that helps

 

[Tim O]

To add to Keth's post, it's easiest to start with what GRP means. It stands for Glass Reinforced Plastic. In other words, something plastic (the cured resin) reinforced by glass filaments. The description 'GRP' does not denote any particular sort of resin, although by far the most common GRP resins are polysters.

The resins in our context are polyester, vinylester or epoxy. Polyester is usual for boats, although the superior and more expensive vinylester is sometimes used. Epoxy is stronger than either, more waterproof, and lighter (inasmuch as the same amount of resin goes further). The first and last qualities are the reasons it's used to bond the carbon fibre in F1 cars. You may have noticed that they're quite tough.

As Keith wrote, epoxy sticks better, both to itself and to other things: put simply, it makes stronger stuff. I know you didn't want a chemistry leason, but the basic reason is that polyester resins bind only at the ends of each molecule. Epoxy bonds part-way along the molecule, as well. So, at a molecular level, there are more screws.

That said, the descriptor 'epoxy' isn't all that specific. There are literally thousands of types of epoxy. But it's easy enough to find one that will do your job admirably.

Brilliant! That's the sort of simple chemistry lesson I can understand......any chance you can point me to a suitable product online so I can get it ordered?...or I have a Force 4 right by the mooring in Cardiff.....sorry for the ask but my brain is full from too much online research!!!!

 

[Tranona]

I would suggest cutting out the ply till you find something solid. (does the bulk head completely unscrew/ come out?).
If the boat is a polyester fibreglass boat stick with polyester resin no need for epoxy its expensive.
Hope that helps

The first sentence is helpful but the second is not. Polyester resin does not bond well to old cured laminates, but epoxy will. You only want to do this job once and the small additional cost of epoxy is well worth it. You can also use glass cloth which is much easier to use when doing fiddly jobs such as this. Expect the bulkhead is glassed to the hull, so the rotten wood needs removing and grinding away from the hull. Then the new wood laminated back to the hull using epoxy.

The West manual on GRP repairs available from Wessex Resins would be a useful thing to have.

Just seen your latest post. You will need more epoxy and fibreglass than you can get from the chandlers. You can buy epoxy from a number of suppliers. I use either West or Blue Gee.

 

[PabloPicasso]

Every anchor locker should be designed to let the inevitable water out either through the hull back to the ocean, or down into the bilges where it can be dealt with as normal. I don't see any practical reason why one might want to keep water in the locker, and that water will almost certainly be a major contributing factor to your chain rusting.

Sealing the lid against rainwater is the priority, and making sure it stays shut against nasty weather another one. Can you post a picture ?

Priority is to sort out the anchor locker drain. Then leave the locker empty with the top hatch open, and cover with an open sided tent to allow moisture to dry. Perhaps there is also a blocked bilge drain causing the water build up? This would need to be cleared to. Then apply heat lamps to dry before repairing.

 

[Tim O]

I would suggest cutting out the ply till you find something solid. (does the bulk head completely unscrew/ come out?).
If the boat is a polyester fibreglass boat stick with polyester resin no need for epoxy its expensive. Strip off the bilge locker paint, wash down the grp locker with fresh water so its clean (so you dont abrade contamination into the grp), you will then need to abrade the grp with 60 grit ( dust mask ) to key up what you will be adding. Do not use anything bitumen based as a temporary bodge, resin will not stick to it at all. Give it a good keying, then wipe all the old grp down with acetone so its cleaned and the surface slightly softened. mix up some resin, in these tempretures get a low temp hardner a fan heater will help as well with a gentle heat. build up several layers on the new ply and a couple on the old stuff, you can also paint the new play with grp resin and that will seal it.
Tear ( when dry ) the chopped strand mat rather than cut with scissors the joins will blend in better you could also tear it around the drain hole, assumes you can unblock it. Plenty of videos on youtube on fibreglassing im sure, as has already been mentioned.
Hope that helps

Definitely helps.....thanks. budget is an issue so I will check out prices of epoxy and standard poly resin and make a decision......

The ply bulkhead is fully glassed in to the hull I think so will need to cut the damaged section then glass a replacement back in...I dint think thee will be a restore woke ting out as it is literally just the bottom 10 inches that seem to be damaged

 

[Tim O]

Once again, I just want to say how brilliant this forum is and as a slightly overwhelmed newbie, all of your advice gives me the confidence to take on these challenges. Thanks everyone

 

[Neeves]

Sorry Tim - you have enough good advise on how the sort out the immediate issues of repairing the locker.

When its all completed - if you keep the yacht on the hard through the winter. Deploy the chain, all of it, on the hard. Lay it out on a pallet. Wash with fresh water and leave until you get back into the water. This will minimise corrosion of the chain. If the gal has largely gone - you might get away with re-galvanising, check the search facility - lots of threads on regalvanising. Its winter, now is a good time to do it! If its too far gone - you will need new chain. Once you have bought new chain and found your wallet that much lighter you will understand why the advise is to care for the chain!

If you anchor and its a nice day, leave the locker lid open - let air circulate in the locker. Try to not allow muddy chain into the locker, wash down whenever you can. Mud will attack, chemically, the galvanising.

It s easier to check the drain hole when at anchor as you will have most of the chain deployed. If you have all the chain deployed, wash the locker of mud.

I have this idea lockers cause as much 'wear' to chain as occurs in actual use. If you wanted to design a storage facility to minimise chain life - you would design a chain locker - as is! Constantly wet, muddy, no circulation etc.

Jonathan

 

[Tim O]

That makes sense.....is there any reason, given that most boats spend most of the time moored in sheltered marinas, why you couldn't store the chain out on deck say in a plastic fish crate with drain holes, then just bung it in the locker when actually sailing???!!!

 

[Tim O]

Um......there are sections of my chain where not only has the galv gone but it is literally flaking away at a touch......I think it's gonna be wise to replace it all! Aaaargh

 

[Neeves]

You could keep it in a crate but if its 8mm or bigger its quite heavy to re-pack and rust will stain the deck. You would need to re-pack so that the bitter end is at the bottom - or the windlass (or you if its hand deployed) would have difficulty.

Leaving it carefully laid out on a pallet is very common for yachts stored for the winter, certainly in the Med and N Am. We do not see it in Oz as most yachts stay in the water (and are used) 365.

With chain I'd be washing it as I retrieve if I had deck wash (seawater), if not I'd wash whenever I had access to a fresh water hose, when you fill the tanks or wash the decks (just think of it as an extra piece of deck ) If you are on the yacht on a mooring and its teeming down with rain, open the locker lid. Our anchor locker has good circulation - you might open the locker lid if its a good day to get some air in and dry out the locker.

None of this is very onerous but it will increase your chain life. Having said that most chain lasts for years.

If the rust is flaking off - buying new chain seems a wise move, sad but true.

There is a trend to people buying G40 chain rather than G30. If its the same price, fine - but G30 chain has had no reports of failure for years (many). Vyv Cox, check his website, did some tests on G30 chain available in the UK and it is primarily Chinese and of acceptable (if not excellent) quality. So - save your money and buy G30. Just check it fits your gypsy (if you have a windlass).

If you hand deploy - there might be an advantage of buying G40 as you might, I stress the might, then be able to buy a smaller size - which will make your life (and chiropractor fees) easier. Smaller chain is lighter and takes up less room (it might even be cheaper )

Jonathan

Jonathan

 

[Tim O]

Good advice re care.

I do have a windlass.....just got to work out the exact chain size.....from the measurements I've taken off the least rusty links seems to be 9.5 mm or thereabouts.

This is not now a common chain size but I've seen some used but excellent condition Lewmar 9.5 chain....my windlass is old Simpson Lawrence Seawolf.....arent Lewmar and SL related in someway?

Need to speak to John at SL Spares!

 

[sarabande]

9.5mm chain is good beefy stuff, though a slightly unusual size (could be 10mm ?). There's a very determined debate elsewhere on the forum with Neeves putting forward the concept and practice of a much lighter chain, and several other experienced sailors and moboists liking the idea and effectiveness of a heavy chain. Don't get diverted into the discussion !

If you have a 9.5mm chainwheel on the winch, it will be expensive to change it for an 8 or a 6. SLSpares are looking at £125, and that will sort out a good length of 9.5 chain. Ebay is a very good source of used chain, and it generally comes with an ancient CQR or Grapnel attached to it, so buy the lot and chuck the anchor.

e.g.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Plough-An...228484?hash=item2ef7672844:g:jRAAAOSw5cNYK0xK

Put a "search" on ebay, and be prepared to buy quickly.

 

[Neeves]

Simpson Lawrence morphed into Lewmar and the latter is privately owned.

I don't know about SL windlass but if you take the gypsy (aka chain wheel) off the size should be embossed into one part of the gypsy. Sensibly it would be on the top, not necessitating taking it off, but it might be underneath. There again it might not be there at all. Again, I'm far to young to know, it might be an imperial gypsy.

Common sizes now are metric and primarily 6mm, 8mm, 10mm and 12mm (though Maggi apparently make a 7mm). Again check Vyv Cox' website as 10mm comes in 2 standards. 10mm chain to one standard will not fit a gypsy of the other - be warned.

As Sarabande suggests new gypsies are not cheap but are available second hand (often worn).

10mm chain for a 33' yacht would be quite hefty. I think you will find many owners of similarly sized yachts, and larger, are more than happy with 8mm (but the cost of a gypsy could make this an unattractive change - but 8mm chain, unsurprisingly, is cheaper than 10mm! , takes up less room and is significantly lighter (but you lose some catenary effect, the benefits of which are the cause of the debate alluded to by Sarabande)). If you wanted comment on chain and size - I'd suggest a quick search of historic threads and then possibly start a new thread.

I suspect your priority is to renovate the anchor locker - which is the focus of your thread.

Jonathan

 

[Tim O]

It is indeed Jonathan!.....but I do also need to sort out new chain before putting to sea again do wise to start doing my research I guess. The world of chain seems, likemost things boaty,to be a bewildering mass of unnecessary complexity!!!

 

[Leighb]

I don't know if you have the instruction manual for the Seawolf? If so it lists the various gipsies available and the identifying code number. If you would like a copy, pm me and I can e-mail it to you, it is a pdf file.

I had a Seawolf on my last boat and it was very reliable.

 

[Tim O]

I'm just going to go check through all my manuals and see what I can find. Cheers for the tip!

 

[Neeves]

Chain is actually very simple:

It comes in, for us, 4 basic sizes: 6mm, 8mm, 10mm and 12mm. except the exceptional 10mm which comes in 2 formats.

Chain comes in three basic strengths, G30, G40 and G70. (There are only 2 suppliers of metric G70, Maggi (Italy) and Peerless (America) both of whom supply a metric G40 quality as well. Most chain available in Europe, and increasingly Australia, is of Chinese origin and is made to a G30 spec but is near G40 quality).

With a new yacht you have the choice of following the catenary route (catenary is advantageous) or the 'opposite' that catenary is a bit over-rated (and over weight, over priced etc).

With an existing yacht the previous sentence need be amended as you might have a windlass which might determine chain size, unless you buy a new gypsy (aka, wildcat or chain wheel).

edit: There are simple spread sheets that relate vessel size to chain size. These tend to be based on 'catenary is good'. Lewmar have such a spread sheet, or did last time I looked. Close edit

Simple

Jonathan