An Anchor Thread! Grab your beers and popcorn.

[KeelsonGraham]

Some great advice here, thanks all. I’ve added the Sarca Excel to my short list - it looks interesting. I keep forgetting to think about the really important factor - will it fit on the bow roller. Now duly noted.

For those who asked, I’ve got a Maxwell VW 500 (which supposedly only deals with 6mm chain). I’m used to anchoring, having graduated from the dump-a-pile-of-chain-on-the-sea-bed style many years ago. Nevertheless, after my well dug-in anchor dragged in a 45kt blow in a pitch black crowded Croatian anchorage at night I’m keen to get the best ground tackle I can afford.

I’m not going to indulge in the weight/size/catenary arguments. I’m much more interested in re-setting ability after a tide/wind shift.

FWIW a 60kt blow is not at all uncommon in, for example, Croatia in the summer. ( Luckily we were on a solid mooring when it happened to us). So, my anchoring choices are cautious and take downbursts from isolated CB very much into consideration! They’re just as much risk as an Atlantic depression.

 

[arc1]

I replaced mine 2 seasons ago with a Knox and have been impressed. Customer service was excellent, including answering all my questions on sizing and supplying a template that meant I could easily make a cardboard mock up to test out on roller and in locker. They also sold me on a long nylon snubber which I now use for all bar lunch stops. Build quality good. No issues with resetting after significant wind shifts (although maximum wind speed used in is about 35kts).

I suspect most people with any of the new generation anchors are pleased with their choice...

 

[webcraft]

Delighted with our Knox, 9kg for a 30ft 5 ton boat with long keel and relatively low windage. Resets (or never unsets) instantly when the tide does a 180. Rode is 40m 8mm chain spliced to 30m octoplait.

I have a Spade on my other boat, but rate the Knox as highly ~ and of course the Knox is substantially cheaper.

I set the Knox by laying the chain out, then at 3~1 scope reversing and letting the revs slowly build to 2000rpm. Hold for a minute, checking a suitable transit. If happy, let out 5-1 scope and a decent length of nylon snubber. Anchor watch app on, job done, relax.

In extreme conditions (eg 50kts} you can take some of the force off the anchor by motoring slowly ahead. Never had to do it yet, it's just a plan B if we do ever drag in sustained high winds. Probably easier than recovery and re-anchoring, particularly in the middle of the night.

One of the problems I see in oversizing an anchor is recovering it in the event of a windlass failure. Some of us are not as young as we used to be.

- W

 

[Neeves]

Some great advice here, thanks all. I’ve added the Sarca Excel to my short list - it looks interesting. I keep forgetting to think about the really important factor - will it fit on the bow roller. Now duly noted.

For those who asked, I’ve got a Maxwell VW 500 (which supposedly only deals with 6mm chain). I’m used to anchoring, having graduated from the dump-a-pile-of-chain-on-the-sea-bed style many years ago. Nevertheless, after my well dug-in anchor dragged in a 45kt blow in a pitch black crowded Croatian anchorage at night I’m keen to get the best ground tackle I can afford.

I’m not going to indulge in the weight/size/catenary arguments. I’m much more interested in re-setting ability after a tide/wind shift.

FWIW a 60kt blow is not at all uncommon in, for example, Croatia in the summer. ( Luckily we were on a solid mooring when it happened to us). So, my anchoring choices are cautious and take downbursts from isolated CB very much into consideration! They’re just as much risk as an Atlantic depression.

Just bear in mind - no anchor is perfect.

Best example - In squishy mud most anchors will be totally inadequate - except for a Fortress (and to a lesser extent) a Danforth. Squishy mud is not that common and both Fortress and Danforth are difficult or impossible to stow (and for both of these reasons are not common - but may be stored in a locker.). Concave anchors tend to compress and pull up mud or mud with embedded root but in clean sand are as good as you can get (and most people like to anchor in sand - the children prefer a sand seabed when swimming and any anchor is clean on retrieval). A clogged anchor may not reset easily if tripped and if you are subject to a wind reversal an anchor may trip. If you read the posts on this, your, thread there are some notable omissions of much hyped designs - there is a reason for the omissions. There are anchors for every eventuality (and wallet) mentioned on this thread. If you want to step outside the listings on this thread - check here before you waste your money.

Your windlass is designed round a specific chain size but commonly can be fitted with a gypsy accepting larger or smaller link. Our Maxwell windlass is designed round 8mm chain (or for a yacht that would normally use 8mm chain) but we have a 6mm gypsy not the standard 8mm gypsy. We also have a 1,000 watt motor as though the chain is small we have a cat that would normally be equipped with 8mm chain. I suspect you motor maybe 500 watts, fine for your yacht size (our cat has the windage of a 45' AWB) horses for courses (or motor wattage for size of yacht ).

However I suspect from what you post that the gypsy is for 6mm chain and will accept no other. The chain size will be in the gyspy casting, somewhere on the circumference. You are thus 'stuck' with 6mm chain (which I think sized perfectly for the size of your yacht). You might be able to change to a bigger gypsy - but they are very expensive. Maxwell make good windlass - you are in safe and reliable hands - if you have any issues contact Maxwell direct - in NZ - they have an unbeatable after sales service.

With 6mm chain I strongly suggest you read up on snubbers and invest in same. A snubber needs to be as long as your yacht to offer full support - don't be fobbed off with 3m of 12mm 3 ply - its too short and too beefy.

If you think a 10m snubber too long (and I'd suggest longer) and impossible to handle/rig send me an email address by PM and I'll send you a couple of PDFs to offer you ideas on how to set up. The PDFs are too big to post here on this thread. An article was published in YM but some time ago now - but YM paid me for the article and I'm not going to offer free access to all and sundry - do not bite the hand that feeds you .

Another source of information on snubbers is Mathias Wagner. Google his name. He has an App, available from the App Store for a nominal sum, which allows you to calculate your snubber needs. He has posted here on YBW and Google should provide links.

Just read back through the previous few posts and you will find that, suddenly, snubbers are becoming 'de rigour' and the sceptics are receding. You can anchor in tight anchorages at short scope (so without much benefit of catenary) but use the elasticity in a long snubber (ours are 30m - but only 10m forward of the bow) and be safe and comfortable.

And more - when you go off to a chandler to look and choose an anchor take a few links of chain with you and when you buy the anchor choose your shackle (and buy a couple of spares). 6mm chain will only accept a small shackle. I don't normally recommend them but your best bet in the UK is to look at the CMP Titan range of black pin shackles NOT their yellow pin shackles (which are roughly half the strength of the black pin shackles). If you are not comfortable with what you find post here, again, and I'll list some other options - take the chain to the chandler and see what fits or not - first. I've had this problem and there are a number of options - but know what anchor(s) you want first. Not every chandler will stock CMP Titan products, they make chain, again under the Titan brand, and CMP make and market Rocna/Vulcan anchors.

The usual recommendation and option is to buy a Crosby shackle but the smallest they offer, a 3/8th" shackle, will not fit 6mm chain.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[harvey38]

I must be missing something here. I have an anchor, dunno what type/make and 50m of 10mm chain but grips just fine.

Happy boy.

 

[Neeves]

I must be missing something here. I have an anchor, dunno what type/make and 50m of 10mm chain but grips just fine.

Happy boy.

Really invaluable information. You are unable to take photographs of your anchor as being so good we all want one -

- sad

Jonathan

 

[KeelsonGraham]

Thank you Jonathan. Great advice and much appreciated. I had no idea that snubbers could be so long!

 

[Elessar]

After I sold my last yacht I tried to do a clear out by advertising a number of items on here, because there was more than one ad. I was accused of being a scammer and permanently banned from the 'for sale' columns of YBW. Among the items I have was a 15k. galv. Spade anchor which I wanted to offer about 1/2 price. I support the provision of school lunches to hungry kids in Malawi through a local charity called 'Mary's meals' and the money I hoped to raise would have gone to them.
Of course as a disgraced outcast I can not offer it here but since the O.P. might benefit from one (it was a superb anchor, rust free, never dragged in the 2 years we were using it) he might be interested to learn that with other useful stuff it is available on the more exclusive but less commercially restricted Blue Moment yachting forum which serves those who sail around Scotland.

Either that’s not the whole truth or shame on the mods.

 

[Neeves]

Thank you Jonathan. Great advice and much appreciated. I had no idea that snubbers could be so long!

Many snubbers are secured at a strong point at the bow and simply extend say 2m-4m forward of the bow. They offer very little snubbing ability because they are too short but do ensure the tension is not being applied to the windlass. If you use a longer snubber, say, 6m-10m it then is offering some snubbing ability but I light winds the chain hook (common method of attachment) rubs on the seabed and falls off the chain. For many the compromise is to have a snubber beyond the bow that cannot runs on the seabed.

If however you commence the snubber at the transom you can have a deck length snubber, say 10m and have 2m beyond the bow - so now you have a 12m snubber. If you had a longer snubber and run round a transom block (as you might a spinnaker sheet) and then to a sheet winch - you could extend your snubber for as much length as you have rope - though you will need to extend the chain to maintain that lazy loop. If you had a 20m length this might now allow you to extend your snubber 10m forward of the bow. A snubber 10m forward of the bow re-introduces the danger of the chain hook falling of. You can reduce this issue by the chain hook incorporating a LFR (or a block) and instead of the snubber being secured to the chain hook it can be free to move and routed back to the bow. Now you have 5m forward of the bow and 5m back to the bow roller + 10m down the deck - a 20m snubber. A 20m snubber gives you 'real' elasticity - you are now geared up for that 50 knot storm. If you leave the snubber permanently deployed (extra rope in a sheet bag at the transom) you can change snubbing gears quickly.

This snubber is simply too short to offer any elasticty - but it does protect the windlass. It is secured at the horn cleat at the bow, runs over the bow roller and to a chain hook.


Here we have run each arm of the bridle down each sidedeck, so 10m each side and we have about 10m deployed forward of the bow. The depth is 5m and though it looks calm the wind at the masthead was gusting to 35 knots and as it was a headwind we were sitting tight and snug.


We have dried out here but have set an anchor off the bow. The snubber (on arm of the bridle) doubles back through the stainless LFRs in the bridle plate and we have virtually no snubber forward of the bow, but each section of the snubber is about 4m long and as they are turned back (in this case secured at the water line, we have 8m of snubber + 10m down the side decks.

In the photo above, an earlier iteration of development, if we had run the snubbers back to the waterline pad eye we would have had 30m deployed.



You can have an adaptation for a monohull using only one snubber - but still have plenty of length.

The elasticty offers the same ability as catenary - as the gust hits the yacht the yacht moves aft and the catenary straightens, or the snubber stretches. When the gust dies down the catenary re-develops its customary sag or the elasticity relaxes and the yacht moves forward. The catenary or elasticity accepts the snatch load - and you do not notice. The stronger the wind the more straight the catenary or stretch of the snubber. if your snubber is too short and too beefy it simply will not stretch.

These are simple fixes to stop a chain hook falling off in shallow water. I have used clevis hooks, rather than the eye hook, bottom left. I have simply added a stainless or fibreglass 'gate' that can be flipped round and released or engaged with the thumb of one hand. Its very simple and the only skill is cutting the 'V' notch so that gate is not too long nor too short - just enough to catch. The 3 grey black hooks are sourced very cheaply from a retailer supplying the lifting industry. These hooks, saddle, hooks are a much better design than the stainless hook (commonly sold in chandlers) as the saddle supports the whole link and the jaw of the hook is design to further support the crown of the link adjacent to the link on the saddle. Tension is thus taken by 2 links of the chain. Unfortunately these hooks are not easily available galvanised - so buy 2 and when the first one upsets you, replace with the spare, take the first hook home, clean and paint and it can become your spare. These hooks are very cheap.

If you have a friendly local galvaniser - he may galvanise some hooks for you. Beer is good currency at galvanisers, especially in the summer.



For more focussed answers to any issues anyone might have - happy to help.

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

Or you can simply use decent sized (heavy) chain, and save yourself a lot of bother.
Not available to those with lightweight, ballast free boats. ?

 

[geem]

Or you can simply use decent sized (heavy) chain, and save yourself a lot of bother.
Not available to those with lightweight, ballast free boats. ?

Not my experience

 

[Neeves]

Or you can simply use decent sized (heavy) chain, and save yourself a lot of bother.
Not available to those with lightweight, ballast free boats. ?

If you have a heavy displacement yacht with a reliable big windlass, lots of battery bank and heavy chain - all perfectly acceptable as long as you have plenty of chain length and lots of room to deploy it.

But the chain is heavy and all stored in the bow taking up lots of room and impacting sailing performance. If you ever need to replace your windlass it will be unnecessarily expensive. It needs lots of power to run the windlass with heavy power cables. The real killer is in a tight anchorage with little room you will need to use a less than adequate scope and will thus be prone to snatch loads. the little room might be because the anchorage is small and there are nasty looking rocks a bit too close - or because there are yachts behind you - and you have no-where else to go. If your sailing grounds are less frequented you may never have a fleet of neighbours taking up room in the anchorage - but empty anchorages tend to be in 'out of the way' places, often with cooler average temperatures and unpopular with the majority - too far away and the kids prefer the warmth of the sun.

If you read the article on the storm in the Med one of this issues was - how do you modify the rode to accomodate the sudden storm. You cannot move - the storm is NOW!, there are yachts behind you, there are yachts dragging - not impacting you but a hazard if you want to move. The 'snubber from the transom' and some doubling back of the snubbers means you can extend the snubber from the safety and comfort of the cockpit without the need for foul weather gear. Deploying more chain to give significant changes in scope - means no-one aft. I exaggerate and am economic with reality - you will need to run to the bow and take the back up snubber off - but that's a 30 second dash in your pyjamas . Yes - you still need the short back up snubber. You do need a good attachment, chain hook, to the rode.

I have no statistics but reading the anchoring and chain threads many people use heavy chain because that is what was on the yacht when they bought it. There also seems a continued and invalid belief that somehow heavy chain offers you better hold, it is thought that the chain contributes to hold. It is then an expensive exercise to down size the chain - and best done when you need new chain or a new windlass. But if you were buying a new yacht (which will tend to be, but not always, an AWB) I would recommend looking at the ground tackle critically. The benefits of using lighter chain allows you to carry more (longer) and save weight. The lighter chain will be cheaper than the heavier chain and you can save money on the windlass, power cables and size of battery (dispensing with a separate battery for the windlass and all the ancillary charging system) and with use of a snubber can use your lighter chain at short scope (as the elasticity replaces the catenary that is ineffective at short scope). For the AWB or multihull you will have a better, sailing, performance - simply because you have moved weight from the bow (and from the overall weight) - and that weight is similar to having at least one healthy male standing on the bow as you beat to windward.

Technically a combination of lighter chain and correctly sized (diameter and length) snubbers is inarguably better. Throw in an inheritance of heavy chain, matching big windlass with matching gypsy - it then becomes a financial dilemma (not technical). Older, heavy displacement yachts (the two go together) will tend to have older windlass and worn chain - the need to replace might come sooner than you think - think about it.

This is 50m of 8mm chain in the two 'top' paint pails and 75m of 6mm chain in the blue and orange pail nearest. You enjoy the same effect if you down size from 10mm to 8mm or 12mm to 10mm.



You know it makes sense.

The downside of the snubber is that it is a consumable, so carry a spare - but they are hardly expensive.

And to add a rider - and contradict myself - when we downsized the chain we invested in a new windlass (which is a dream compared to the old one) but we kept the same sized motor - because the yacht is the same size and it is inevitable that one day you will use the electric motor to pull the yacht forward. So we use oversized power cables. We also bought an '8mm windlass' but with a 6mm gypsy - and reduced the possible stress on the windlass. But instead of a 50m rode we now have 75m. The 75m metre takes up less room than the 50m. If the windlass fails (one of the power cables was loose) retrieval is easy. We no longer worry about anchoring at short scope.

It always seems perverse to have a dedicated battery for a windlass (and you use that dedicated battery infrequently (compared to the house bank which is used 24/7 when you use the yacht) when you could simply have had the benefit of a larger battery bank as a house battery. I do appreciate sometimes the power cable run might be long etc etc - there are always exceptions.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

I'm not going to try to compete on word count, Jonathan. ?
It's worth pointing out to anyone who actually reads your essays, that your boat is very much at the extreme lightweight end of the spectrum. As I wrote earlier, having substantial chain is an option not available to you, and as a result of using "lavvy" chain, you are obliged to rig complicated stretchy snubbers. That's fine, but why try to convert everyone else to your unnecessary complications?
It is unfortunate that the term "snubber" is used for the normal everyday device for taking the chain load off the windlass, (surely everyone does that), but is also used for the macramé of pensioned off climbing rope, favoured by yourself.
I favour an all chain rode of a substantial size. At present we have 65m of 10mm chain on a chunky 11m boat. It works well for us, but far be it from me to tell others what they should do.

 

[Neeves]

I'm not going to try to compete on word count, Jonathan. ?
It's worth pointing out to anyone who actually reads your essays, that your boat is very much at the extreme lightweight end of the spectrum. As I wrote earlier, having substantial chain is an option not available to you, and as a result of using "lavvy" chain, you are obliged to rig complicated stretchy snubbers. That's fine, but why try to convert everyone else to your unnecessary complications?
It is unfortunate that the term "snubber" is used for the normal everyday device for taking the chain load off the windlass, (surely everyone does that), but is also used for the macramé of pensioned off climbing rope, favoured by yourself.
I favour an all chain rode of a substantial size. At present we have 65m of 10mm chain on a chunky 11m boat. It works well for us, but far be it from me to tell others what they should do.

I do agree there is much confusion on the use of the word snubber. But I am not going to change the world and I'll focus on other issues

I disagree - on other points.

I think you SHOULD tell others what YOU do to provide an alternative to what, I, or some others, do. You then provide balance and options. There is no one right answer. I might suggest your practice is much more accepted than mine. I am considered heretical by many.


For a less chunky (lovely technical term ) yacht of 11m I might suggest 8mm would be more than adequate and some HT 6mm and a snubber would improve their sailing performance no end, use less power to retrieve, need a smaller windlass and cost much less. The weight saving for your 65m would be about 100kg. and here, depending on who you buy from save about stg300 (just for the chain) and and save a minimum of stg500 (or a lot more if you desire) for the windlass.

You and I were brought up, almost, within shouting distance of each other. It seems John Knox' (1514/1572) parsimony was restricted to my education .



Jonathan

 

[sailingmartin]

I think I’m with Jonathan on this one. While upgrading a manual windlass to electric on my new (to me) 7.5 tonnes boat I also swapped the old 45lbs CQR for an 18 kg Knox and downsized the 10mm chain to 8mm. The weight saving was substantial and the 1000w windlass handles the smaller chain with ease. I use a Mantus chain hook attached to a fairly long bridle to provide some snubbing effect although I might consider extending this given Jonathan‘s advice. All has worked well in up to 30 knots but not tested beyond that so far.

 

[NormanS]

I do agree there is much confusion on the use of the word snubber. But I am not going to change the world and I'll focus on other issues

I disagree - on other points.

I think you SHOULD tell others what YOU do to provide an alternative to what, I, or some others, do. You then provide balance and options. There is no one right answer. I might suggest your practice is much more accepted than mine. I am considered heretical by many.


For a less chunky (lovely technical term ) yacht of 11m I might suggest 8mm would be more than adequate and some HT 6mm and a snubber would improve their sailing performance no end, use less power to retrieve, need a smaller windlass and cost much less. The weight saving for your 65m would be about 100kg. and here, depending on who you buy from save about stg300 (just for the chain) and and save a minimum of stg500 (or a lot more if you desire) for the windlass.

You and I were brought up, almost, within shouting distance of each other. It seems John Knox' (1514/1572) parsimony was restricted to my education .



Jonathan

If I really wanted to save money, I wouldn't have a boat. ?
I already have the other items, Lofrans Tigres, and 10mm chain, so no savings there either. The boat was designed with a chain locker of adequate size.
She's not a wee lightweight thing that skitters about in every puff of wind, but I do accept that she's a lot slower than your catamaran. Again, if I wanted speed, I wouldn't have a boat.
"Different ships - different long splices".
I believe that there are many correct ways of doing things. The difference is that I don't go on and on, trying to persuade people that my way is the only way. In that, we differ.

 

[Neeves]

If I really wanted to save money, I wouldn't have a boat. ?
I already have the other items, Lofrans Tigres, and 10mm chain, so no savings there either. The boat was designed with a chain locker of adequate size.
She's not a wee lightweight thing that skitters about in every puff of wind, but I do accept that she's a lot slower than your catamaran. Again, if I wanted speed, I wouldn't have a boat.
"Different ships - different long splices".
I believe that there are many correct ways of doing things. The difference is that I don't go on and on, trying to persuade people that my way is the only way. In that, we differ.

You would be amazed at the number of people who send me a PM and ask for more details.

I don't try to persuade people - if they are persuaded I hope its because they understand not that they fall for glib talk. I believe in sharing knowledge - if people are interested they can follow, or not - most of the time I don't know. However because people query, with a post, or a PM I know that each time I post someone has had their interests sparked. You will not believe but there are people who have just joined the YBW forum and have never read anything I have posted. Knowledge is of no value to me, I already use that knowledge, successfully. I thus offer that knowledge hoping some people find it useful. I don't mind if it falls on, largely, deaf ears. Here I give lectures, sounds grand - talks, to yacht clubs and I am asked to help owners set up snubber systems, attach a Boomerang - you would be amazed . Its not an 'Oz thing' I'm asked by people from the US, Canada, Europe - even, or as well as - the UK. My Boomerang and Bridle Plate are sold internationally - I make not a cent, nor a penny - I'm happy my 'knowledge' is shared.

The best part is when people who argued and said, or meant to say, I was a charlatan 10 years, or so, ago are now quoting as their ideas what I said then .

Jonathan


Jonathan

Jonathan

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

Hmm, very good. Indeed, as I recall, in the interests of spreading good ideas, I sent you a photo of my "Bent Link", which you have since publicised as your "Boomerang". So you're not alone.

 

[Neeves]

Hmm, very good. Indeed, as I recall, in the interests of spreading good ideas, I sent you a photo of my "Bent Link", which you have since publicised as your "Boomerang". So you're not alone.

Norman - you have said this before

But your bent link is identical to one made by Oscalutti and another I have seen of unknown origin but cast.

Was yours original?

I don't understand your complaints. You know what I am saying yet you seem to read every new post I make. You object to the idea that people new to the forum might benefit from my posts. You read my posts voluntarily - and then complain. and further complain they are too long - exactly why do you read them if they upset you so much and desire that new mmbers be denied opportunity to read them.


These are my Boomerangs, I do have a couple of other versions - similar concept but allowing different methods of attachment of the chain.

My links are cut from 800 MPa steel plate, galvanised and each device is exactly the same as the others as the machine is programmed to cut identically - the benefits of the 21st century. My devices are made to ensure that the shackle, and the holes are sized for a Crosby shackle, is the weak link. My devices have been tested to destruction and are 3 times the strength of the appropriate chain (a bit over engineered ).

This is the Oscalutti bent link, which has a swivel at one end



You are suggesting I copied your bent link - maybe you would like to post a picture of your link and define the reason why you suggest I copied your link and I did not copy the Oscalutti version - or why your link is not an almost exact copy of the Oscalutti version. Your link is a piece of bent stainless rod with rings welded on each end. Maybe you are suggesting that Oscalutti copied your device . I specifically did not want a device whose strength was contingent on the skill of an unknown welder using steel rings of an unknown source. I did not see the point of Oscalutti's methods of attachment nor their swivel.

The idea your device and design is unique lacks some credibility.

Your repetitive claim that I copied your device and design lacks logic in the face of almost identical designs from totally independent sources.

So - let's see your link

Jonathan

 

[Supertramp]

These threads are always interesting.

I'm firmly in the Norman S camp but I do appreciate the science behind anchoring and choices of ground tackle. I always use a snubber now, but it's only 3 meters long. Considering a much longer one now. I will also think carefully about any future anchor so that I can deal with a wide range of bottom conditions. And I will think carefully about chain size and strength ratings if I have to replace. I have seen how quickly a good condition, heavy, chafe protected anchor warp can disintegrate under extreme conditions on relatively heavy boats.

I do think that where you sail (wind, bottom, depth, swell) and how you sail (singlehanded vs crewed) and the size and weight of boat should all influence choice. Not everyone will want 1/2 tonne of tackle hanging of the bow. The collecting of ideas from this forum adds more options and refinements so that you find good, workable ways to anchor securely in any anchorage.

Keep discussing with respect for the diversity of boats and their cruising grounds.