AIS

[Triassic]

Would make you safer and everyone else safer

That's a bit of a sweeping statement and rather suggests you either don't understand the principals of seamanship or you're prepared to make quite a few uninformed assumptions. I'm not sure what is worse......

 

[Yealm]

That's a bit of a sweeping statement and rather suggests you either don't understand the principals of seamanship or you're prepared to make quite a few uninformed assumptions. I'm not sure what is worse......

I think over 90% of sailing boats' owners were transmitting AIS data during my trip to the Scillies.
They presumably disagree.

 

[Triassic]

I think over 90% of sailing boats' owners were transmitting AIS data during my trip to the Scillies.
They presumably disagree.

You're making assumptions again. They may feel the need for AIS, they may have it because they don't understand it's limitations, or they may indeed have it and because they do understand it they don't actually look at it very often.... Without knowing the individual needs and circumstances of each skipper I wouldn't be so bold as to offer a view on which it is.

You on the other hand stated both I and others would be safer if I had AIS on my vessel. Perhaps you'd like to tell my why? What do you know about how or where I sail Triassic? Do you know anything about sailing small high performance yachts?

 

[Yealm]

You're making assumptions again. They may feel the need for AIS, they may have it because they don't understand it's limitations, or they may indeed have it and because they do understand it they don't actually look at it very often.... Without knowing the individual needs and circumstances of each skipper I wouldn't be so bold as to offer a view on which it is.

You on the other hand stated both I and others would be safer if I had AIS on my vessel. Perhaps you'd like to tell my why? What do you know about how or where I sail Triassic? Do you know anything about sailing small high performance yachts?

Interested to know where you sail ? I can't think of anywhere where fog and other vessels don't exist, even in remoter areas. Your other post sort of implies you think on balance AIS is dumbing down sailing rather than improving safety.
I've owned a pogo2 and F28r trimaran - both had AIS.

ps just noticed a previous post - you sail out of Dover ?

 

[sailaboutvic]

I think over 90% of sailing boats' owners were transmitting AIS data during my trip to the Scillies.
They presumably disagree.

I can't comment on what was going on in that trip but I can assure you out of all the sailing boats we meet as we sail around everyday for nine months of the year many have AIS but very few with transponders .

 

[Triassic]

Interested to know where you sail ? I can't think of anywhere where fog and other vessels don't exist, even in remoter areas. Your other post sort of implies you think on balance AIS is dumbing down sailing rather than improving safety.
I've owned a pogo2 and F28r trimaran - both had AIS.

ps just noticed a previous post - you sail out of Dover ?

Being a trailer sailor I sail out of a lot of places however it would be fair to say that the majority of my recreational sailing is done in the Medway/Thames estuary area or in the Solent, both of which have their fair share of other traffic about.

As I conceded earlier AIS might be useful in fog, but it certainly cannot be relied upon so you shouldn't actually be doing anything differently because you have it, hence my comment about you understanding seamanship. In fact you could quite reasonably argue that the presence of AIS detracts from safety as it may give the skipper a false sense of security and either encourage them to go somewhere they may not otherwise have gone, or lead them not to take alternative precautions.

Fog is not difficult to deal with, especially so in the waters I sail in. Firstly I can slow my own boat down enough so that I can stop or turn in the distance I can see to be clear, this allows me to miss other sailing vessels, fishing boats, errant buoys, sand banks, or pretty much anything that might be considered inconvenient to run into...... Secondly I can sail in waters shallow enough to avoid coming into conflict with anything big enough to kill me....of which there is an abundance of both in those areas.

Thirdly if I really do feel the need to cross a shipping channel in zero visibility (why would you) I'd recruit the help of Medway VTS or similar and simply ask them to look both ways for me. That not only helps identify a suitable opportunity to make the crossing but broadcasts my location and intention to other vessels in the immediate vicinity.

Do I think the widespread use of AIS is dumbing down sailing? Yes I do. As I said earlier it's a bit like driving. How many drivers understand traction, braking and weight transfer or how the various road surfaces and conditions can impact on all three of those crucial elements of car control? Frighteningly few these days I can tell you. Instead they rely on the vehicles electronics to keep things in line and when we get a little adverse weather like snow (the equivalent of sailings fog) they think things should go on as normal, and we all know what happens then.....

AIS may well make things easier for you, but don't be under the illusion it makes things safer.

 

[capnsensible]

I think over 90% of sailing boats' owners were transmitting AIS data during my trip to the Scillies.
They presumably disagree.

Really? I doubt it. Would say the number of vessels with receivers is on the rise but small vessels transmitting? 90% Nah.

AIS, Plotters are great tools to enhance safety at sea. But people should also understand their limitations and use them with respect, not blind faith.

If you really want a mostly reliable aid you would fit, learn to operate, and keep watch on Radar. Or perhaps you do?

 

[RichardS]

AIS may well make things easier for you, but don't be under the illusion it makes things safer.

I don't intend to get involved in the detail of this because it all seems rather obvious ..... but there can be absolutely no doubt that, all other things being equal, having an AIS receiver installed makes things safer and that having an AIS transceiver installed makes things safer still.

Exactly the same thing applies to radar, or a hand-bearing compass or a pair of binocs. Each of these things produces an effect and there is simply no possibility that carrying any of these makes one less safe and therefore that effect must be to make one more safe, on average.

One could debate the difference in the relative level of contribution to safety, of course, but that's all.

Richard

PS I would implore anyone who wants to mention "radar induced collisions", or similar, to read the above again.

 

[Yealm]

Really? I doubt it. Would say the number of vessels with receivers is on the rise but small vessels transmitting? 90% Nah.

AIS, Plotters are great tools to enhance safety at sea. But people should also understand their limitations and use them with respect, not blind faith.

If you really want a mostly reliable aid you would fit, learn to operate, and keep watch on Radar. Or perhaps you do?

Glad you agree AIS is great !

Yes I think about 90%, maybe slight exaggeration, but around there for sailing boats (solent to scillies, night and day sailing).

Fishing boats much less so, guess about 30% transmitting. I was surprised - I'd have thought they'd be dominant users - always at sea, extra hazard for other boats eg erratic course, trailing nets, nav lights difficult to see due to working lights etc I wondered if due to wanting to stay in stealth mode to avoid giving away position to other fishing boats ? Hope govt/EU make it compulsory for them.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Really? I doubt it. Would say the number of vessels with receivers is on the rise but small vessels transmitting? 90% Nah.

On the west coast of Scotland I'd estimate about 1 in 5 transmitting at most.

 

[Yealm]

Really? I doubt it. Would say the number of vessels with receivers is on the rise but small vessels transmitting? 90% Nah.

AIS, Plotters are great tools to enhance safety at sea. But people should also understand their limitations and use them with respect, not blind faith.

If you really want a mostly reliable aid you would fit, learn to operate, and keep watch on Radar. Or perhaps you do?

The AIS versus radar thing has been discussed previously.

I don't have radar, I'm guessing in marinas about 60-70% of sailing boats have it although probably much much lower for boats my size (32 feet) and less ?

My personal reason for not having radar is that I don't think it's particularly useful. Firstly, the images are a bit like diagnostic medical ultrasound - rather tricky to interpret without experience - and I don't have the patience to buy it and learn how to use it in normal (good visibility) sailing conditions. Secondly, I'm not sure what it adds ? GPS gives my positional relationship to fixed stuff with much more accuracy. AIS gives my position relative to moving stuff more accurately.

The only situation where I can see radar being additionally useful is in fog when the other boat is not transmitting AIS - I hope rare and getting rarer as AIS becomes more and more the socially responsible thing to have.

 

[Yealm]

I can't comment on what was going on in that trip but I can assure you out of all the sailing boats we meet as we sail around everyday for nine months of the year many have AIS but very few with transponders .

What do you think the reason is - it seem counter-intuitive to spend a fortune on a boat, then sensibly decide AIS would be useful but not to spend a tiny bit more on a transceiver (compared to a receive only) ?

 

[sailaboutvic]

The AIS versus radar thing has been discussed previously.

I don't have radar, I'm guessing in marinas about 60-70% of sailing boats have it although probably much much lower for boats my size (32 feet) and less ?

My personal reason for not having radar is that I don't think it's particularly useful. Firstly, the images are a bit like diagnostic medical ultrasound - rather tricky to interpret without experience - and I don't have the patience to buy it and learn how to use it in normal (good visibility) sailing conditions. Secondly, I'm not sure what it adds ? GPS gives my positional relationship to fixed stuff with much more accuracy. AIS gives my position relative to moving stuff more accurately.

The only situation where I can see radar being additionally useful is in fog when the other boat is not transmitting AIS - I hope rare and getting rarer as AIS becomes more and more the socially responsible thing to have.

Radar as very easy to use these day unlike the old days , fitting Again it mostly plug and play the only disadvantage is the power they use .
We do a heck of a lot of night sailing and it's on if not on standby from the time it get dark .
AIS is useless unless the other vessel is transmitte , we come across ship that don't , fishing boats don't always too .

 

[Lucky Duck]

AIS becomes more and more the socially responsible thing to have.

 

[sailaboutvic]

What do you think the reason is - it seem counter-intuitive to spend a fortune on a boat, then sensibly decide AIS would be useful but not to spend a tiny bit more on a transceiver ?

I can only give you my reason , because I don't want people know where I am ,

Also agust poplar believe I don't accept it's of any real use to me it would be if it was law that everyone had to have a transponder
Look I managed 40 years without one we may have another 20 years sailing left left please god , I think I can manage without one .
if I couldn't safely a busy shipping area without an AIS then maybe best I took up golf .
The only reason i got a receiver is because it was on my last boat the co skipper like to use it at night when she on night watch in add with the radar. And what makes her happy makes me happy and for the price the boat was going to be sold for we took the list of equipment going with the boat .

 

[JumbleDuck]

Exactly the same thing applies to radar, or a hand-bearing compass or a pair of binocs. Each of these things produces an effect and there is simply no possibility that carrying any of these makes one less safe and therefore that effect must be to make one more safe, on average.

With respect, I disagree. There are two ways in which any of these gadgets could have an adverse affect on safety: the absolute and the relative.

Absolute: someone who is so intent on playing with radar, or on spotting birds with a binocular, may consequently spend less time looking out and consequently hit something.

Relative: someone who spends a wad of cash on a radar may improve their safety a bit, but not as much as if they had spent the money on something else. An RYA theory course, for example, or a more reliable engine.

Of course many people will improve their safety, but it's not a given from loading the boat down with toys.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

On the west coast of Scotland I'd estimate about 1 in 5 transmitting at most.

I don't want you to know where I am in my newly found secret anchorage with torquoise clear water, perfect holding, a dusky maiden singing lullabies on an old stone pier & haggises grazing quietly in the glen. You might come & anchor here too & start banging on about AIS versus radar or your new battery or something.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I would estimate that fewer than 0.05% of boats that sail in the Cardigan Bay Area transmit AIS, and fewer than 20% have AIS receivers. I have picked up only one AIS signal in the last 2 months in this area, the Fishguard to Ireland Ferry.
Yes I think AIS is an additional safety aid particularly at times of restricted visibility, and would certainly fit both transmit and receive if I sailed in any area that has a high level of activity, but like others on commenting on this thread, I still think it is only an additional safety device and does not alleviate the necessity of keeping a good watch and using ones eyes and ears.
As for radar, it still seems to me to be an expensive luxury on a relatively small sailing boat, (25’), but perhaps with the advances in electronics we might soon have a compact low wattage radar unit suitable for smaller vessels?

 

[sailaboutvic]

I don't want you to know where I am in my newly found secret anchorage with torquoise clear water, perfect holding, a dusky maiden singing lullabies on an old stone pier & haggises grazing quietly in the glen. You might come & anchor here too & start banging on about AIS versus radar or your new battery or something.

You may joke but you be suprise how true to the point that is

 

[Yealm]

I don't want you to know where I am in my newly found secret anchorage with torquoise clear water, perfect holding, a dusky maiden singing lullabies on an old stone pier & haggises grazing quietly in the glen. You might come & anchor here too & start banging on about AIS versus radar or your new battery or something.