AIS
- Thread starter sailaboutvic
- Start date
webcraft
Well-Known Member
Aaah - food for another discussion - the benefits of radar reflectors versus AIS !
Surely it is not a choice . . . radar reflectors just work, require no power (unless See-Me or similar) and are a bit of a no-brainer.
AIS is very reassuring to have and undoubtedly increases safety in fog . . . much easier to fit for smaller boats than radar, and easier to use, BUT as others have pointed out you need ot be aware that not everything out there shows on AIS.
If you are getting an AIS then a transceiver (transmit as well) is not a lot more expensive these days and seems a bit of a no-brainer.
- W
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JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Do go ahead, then ...
Firstly, I said "Each of these things produces an effect and there is simply no possibility that carrying any of these makes one less safe and therefore that effect must be to make one more safe, on average."
Whilst I accept that someone might invest in binoculars or AIS and then spend an inordinate amount of time fiddling about with it rather than using it properly for its intended purpose, the number of people who do this to such an extent that they actually reduce their overall level of safety in absolute terms to a level below that which applied prior to their purchase will be so small that, as I said, on average, the absolute level of safety must be increased rather than diminished.
So you accept that there is a possibility that safety could be reduced, but assert that it does not happen. Have you any evidential basis for that assertion? I'm taking issue with your "there is simply no possibility", not with your overall assessment.
But I am. It's not illogical, just a different point of view. If one has £500 to spend on safety, say, then surely the best outcome is the maximum increase in safety for that expenditure.
And without evidence it is impossible to conclude the opposite. I expect - without evidence - that most people will be safer, some will be no safer and a few will be less safe.
Triassic
Well-Known Member
On reflection Richard I am sure that you are right, the vast majority or people who invest in AIS could potentially be safer than if they had not, however I say that with the proviso that they understand the limitations of AIS and are not led into a false sense of security by it that as a result increases their exposure to risk.
Yealm
Well-Known Member
Yealm
Well-Known Member
Of course AIS makes sailing safer!
Even if 1 in a million owners has a collision because they were distracted fiddling with the settings doesn’t trump the other million minus one owners who benefited. Perspective
RichardS
N/A
I'm afraid that you seem to be missing the key points, especially the words "on average".
As you say, I have accepted that buying binoculars or AIS might make some people less safe because they spend all their time fiddling with it and stop keeping a proper lookout ..... so how can I have asserted that it does not happen? I have absolutely no idea where you get this idea from. However, the proportion of people who buy such a safety aid and then use it in such a way that it reduces their level of safety is unarguably so small as to be statistically insignificant. Thus, on average, across the entire population of safety-device-procuring individuals, the overall level of safety must be increased rather than diminished and there is simply no possibility of the converse.
Secondly, I am not debating the relative impact on safety of different appliances but I am simply stating that investing in an AIS will, on average, increase one's level of safety. There is, of course, no argument against the fact that one might be able to spend the same amount of money on something else and increase one's level of safety even more but that is an discussion that is so particular to the circumstances of an individual boat/sailor/location/galaxy/dimension that it would be meaningless without knowing the specifics of where we are starting from and how much we intend to spend.
I could argue that spending the money on an advert and selling the boat would be absolutely the safest thing that any sailor could do .... but it's a sterile argument albeit absolutely Vulcan in its logic.
Richard
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capnsensible
Well-Known Member
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Since you are now saying that "on average" AIS improves safety instead of your previous "there is simply no possibility" that it does not, we are happily in agreement.
However, I am intrigued by your "However, the proportion of people who buy such a safety aid and then use it in such a way that it reduces their level of safety is unarguably so small as to be statistically insignificant." Have you any evidence to support that?
RichardS
N/A
Errrrr ....... except that I'm not saying "on average" now because I've said it from the very start. The question is why you didn't read it from the very start as it says "There is simply no possibility that carrying any of these makes one less safe and therefore that effect must be to make one more safe, on average." :encouragement:
As for your second sentence, the only scientific evidence I have is that it is unarguably bleedin' obvious.
However, if you feel that it is arguable, then please feel free to argue it .... but, for obvious reasons, not with me.
Richard
RichardS
N/A
Frank admission, well done.
That demonstrates very inventive editing of a perfectly logical statement, Capt.
I wish that I had the intellect necessary to engage in such erudite word-play.
Richard
RupertW
Well-Known Member
Of course AIS makes sailing safer!
Even if 1 in a million owners has a collision because they were distracted fiddling with the settings doesn’t trump the other million minus one owners who benefited. Perspective
A typo I guess. Presumably you mean even if 1 in a million owners is safer becuase they benefitted from AIS it doesn't trump the other million minus one owners who were distracted by fiddling with the settings.
The trouble with making up numbers like you did is that other people can also make up numbers that say the opposite. I have seen people taking risks when AIS says no collision is imminent that I would not do without AIS, and then I've seen them alarmed as their sailing speed varies and the AIS starts warning again. I' ve also seen people staring at their AIS when their eyes would be telling them that a ship is starting to turn.
I like AIS but, like chartplotters, I do worry about those who don't start from the position of being competent without them. As an additional piece of information they are great but as the primary way of checking for collisions I think they are dangerous.
Yealm
Well-Known Member
I’m sorry - yes in the interests of brevity I was a bit unclear- thanks for the clarity.
But I don’t share the concerns and caveats others have about AIS. It’s so simple and intuitive - obviously an additional tool and not a replacement for observation.
Clearly statutory authorities agree-it’s compulsory for bigger ships and in Singapore for all vessels I understand-hopefully will happen in UK/EU soon, particularly for fishing vessels, so safer and better for all.
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JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
I'll leave you to resolve the issue in your claim that something with "simply no possibility" of making things worse only improves things "on average".
I completely agree that AIS generally makes things better. I'm just seeking some evidence to support your claim that it invariably, in every case, makes things better. If you can't do better than "because I say so", I'll presume you have no such evidence. Which is fine - it invalidates your point, but it wasn't a very important point anyway.
CLB
Well-Known Member
Are you sure your AIS is working correctly? It's not a particularly busy area, but I can see about 7 AIS targets in Cardigan Bay right now. To only see one in two months seems a bit odd.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
GHA
Well-Known Member
Doesn't that pretty much apply to any gadget onboard?
RichardS
N/A
Nothing to resolve .... almost everyone on here can read plain English. :encouragement:
But why do repeatedly attribute something to me which I never said? It was me who cited the circumstances of someone fiddling with their new gadget so much that their safety is, in fact, reduced rather than enhanced.
Richard
Praxinoscope
Well-Known Member
Interesting, I have just come back in from a potter around between Newquay and Aberaeron visibility was excellent, didn’t pick up any AIS signals, but didn’t expect to as there were only three boats, all small and probably not transmitting AIS, visible in about a 4 to 5 mile radius.
Yealm
Well-Known Member
Currently over 30 in Plymouth Sound/marinas on MarineTraffic.
