AIS Transponder or EchoMax XS ?

[cornish 2]

Just getting the boat ready for a year long cruise. The trip will be around the Med and the Caribean. Has anyone out there got both AIS and EchoMax or Seamee, if so, do you use both, which do you use most ?
If I only have the budget for one, which should it be?

Cheers Richard

 

[pvb]

If I only have the budget for one, which should it be?

No question - Echomax XS or Sea-Me. An active radar enhancer beats an AIS transponder hands down.

 

[melandnick]

Just getting the boat ready for a year long cruise. The trip will be around the Med and the Caribean. Has anyone out there got both AIS and EchoMax or Seamee, if so, do you use both, which do you use most ?
If I only have the budget for one, which should it be?

Cheers Richard

I am pretty sure this subject has come up many times before so might be worth doing a search.
FYI, Seame seem to have a good deal on reworked single band units at the moment at £220+VAT.
I am buying one, can't afford a dual band and this seems too good a deal to pass up:
http://www.sea-me.co.uk/shop.html
Cheers
Nick

 

[multihullsailor6]

Without going down the radar route I want to know about the big boy traffic around me, so my first choice is an AIS (even better if you can strech the funds to an AIS transceiver and thus be seen) coupled with the best passive radar reflector the Tri-Lens. Though Nick's reworked Sea-Me seems a good buy!

 

[Jean]

But class A big boys apparently don’t have to monitor us class B’s (clutter up their screens), so AIS transmit could give a false sense of security.

 

[haydude]

No question - Echomax XS or Sea-Me. An active radar enhancer beats an AIS transponder hands down.

ABSOLUTE RUBBISH!

I bet you have spent a fortune for those and now you have to justify to yourself why you do not have a much more useful AIS transponder.

The argument is simple:

On large ships:
- Radar must be watched and interpreted. Often it is not, especially for small targets.
- AIS can be left unattended yet IT WILL SOUND an ALARM

On small crafts:
- Some have radar, but how many do have it turned on all the time? Especially on sailing yachts it drains batteries therefore it is turned on only when strictly necessary
- AIS receivers are cheap compared to a radar and they are becoming ever so more popular, easy to interface with a display, THEY ACTUALLY SOUND AN ALARM if there is a danger of collision

 

[Georgio]

I have both an AIS Transponder and Echomax XS and they are both very good tools to have in the navigational tool box. If I was wanting to spend less cash I would go for an x-band only RTE and a decent AIS reciever such the Vespa Watchmate.

 

[Conachair]

Just getting the boat ready for a year long cruise. The trip will be around the Med and the Caribean. Has anyone out there got both AIS and EchoMax or Seamee, if so, do you use both, which do you use most ?
If I only have the budget for one, which should it be?

Cheers Richard

Never done the med but after atlantic circuit i would not go offshore again without an ais receiver. Or onshore for that matter as the standalone units are so cheap and draw so little power. My boat's steel so the radar reflecter isn't needed, I've watch ships midocean change course by a few degrees a few miles away on the ais to miss me then change course back again.

Not so sure about ais transponders, personally i assume everyone else is asleep and out to get me so as another said it may lead to a false semse of security. And cruising power is all important, my little nasa ais draws 0.1a and works down to 11.5v, does all that is needed.

 

[pvb]

ABSOLUTE RUBBISH!

I bet you have spent a fortune for those and now you have to justify to yourself why you do not have a much more useful AIS transponder.

The argument is simple:

On large ships:
- Radar must be watched and interpreted. Often it is not, especially for small targets.
- AIS can be left unattended yet IT WILL SOUND an ALARM

On small crafts:
- Some have radar, but how many do have it turned on all the time? Especially on sailing yachts it drains batteries therefore it is turned on only when strictly necessary
- AIS receivers are cheap compared to a radar and they are becoming ever so more popular, easy to interface with a display, THEY ACTUALLY SOUND AN ALARM if there is a danger of collision

Thanks for that! Actually, I haven't got either AIS or a radar target enhancer. However, assuming that the main danger to a yacht is shipping, I do know that ships are more likely to monitor radar than AIS. Additionally, I'm sure you're aware that one of the provisions the regulatory bodies included in the AIS specification is the ability for SOLAS classed vessels to filter out Class B targets, reflecting the potential confusion which could be caused by an overwhelming volume of AIS B data. If you really believe your Class B transponder is going to sound an alarm on a merchant ship, you're a true optimist.

 

[haydude]

Thanks for that! Actually, I haven't got either AIS or a radar target enhancer. However, assuming that the main danger to a yacht is shipping, I do know that ships are more likely to monitor radar than AIS. Additionally, I'm sure you're aware that one of the provisions the regulatory bodies included in the AIS specification is the ability for SOLAS classed vessels to filter out Class B targets, reflecting the potential confusion which could be caused by an overwhelming volume of AIS B data. If you really believe your Class B transponder is going to sound an alarm on a merchant ship, you're a true optimist.

I have an AIS transponder. I also have radar and passive reflector.
I crossed the channel several times and some times in Force 8+. In the through of those waves I can guarantee I was invisible to a radar, yet I could see all the ships coming through and they could see me, I am sure by some of the course alterations I noticed. In bad weather I tried radar, but having to continuosly fiddle with it, as a minimum pointing to a target to get it into a MARPA list and once again once lost and regained, I eventually turned it off, because I realized that AIS was working on its own without having to fiddle with anything. In the years I had radar I found it useful only a few times in fog.

Yes, ships might have the option to filter class B, like I have the option to turn the AIS proximity alarm off. But we don't, unless it is a lovely sunny day and we are entering Portsmouth harbour!

 

[pvb]

Yes, ships might have the option to filter class B...

No, they do have that option, and many use it. But they don't turn their radar off.

 

[AHoy2]

ABSOLUTE RUBBISH! ...

ABSOLUTE RUBBISH yourself.

Have to agree with pvb.

If seems you are limiting your concerns to the "big ships" which is a bit of a short sighted policy, on that basis:

"yet I could see all the ships coming through and they could see me"
- how do you know that? You were only aware of the AIS active ones;

"...In the through of those waves I can guarantee I was invisible to a radar"
- active radar transponder makes you a BIG radar target i.e. noticed, far less likely to be ignored than AIS B signature;

"In bad weather I tried radar, but having to continuosly fiddle with it, as a minimum pointing to a target to get it into a MARPA list and once again once lost and regained, I eventually turned it off"
- should not need to be continuously fiddled with once optimised for the conditions, note the limitations in those conditions - simple RBL/RM more use than iffy MARPA I would have thought;

"In the years I had radar I found it useful only a few times in fog"
- not limited to such use in my experience.


In terms of cost and power consumption I would do as mentioned by others: AIS receive only will give you the information you need about other vessels (that are transmitting correctly). Back that up with a radar transponder and you become significantly more likely to be noticed by commercial shipping (radar also has proximity alarms). By all means add an AIS B transmit capability as the next level of your defence but I place having radar above that as a tool.

 

[bbg]

If I was wanting to spend less cash I would go for an x-band only RTE and a decent AIS reciever such the Vespa Watchmate.

Exactly what I ordered on Friday. SeaMe reconditioned unit plus Vesper Watchmate RX/TX version. About £1,100 total.
I think anyone who is considering an AIS transponder would be well advised to ensure either that it can be easily plumbed in to existing displays, or buy a standalone unit. IMO, if you are spending the money on the transmit feature, the additional cost of getting the information displayed is not enormous. It lets you be active rather than passive.

 

[multihullsailor6]

Additionally, I'm sure you're aware that one of the provisions the regulatory bodies included in the AIS specification is the ability for SOLAS classed vessels to filter out Class B targets, reflecting the potential confusion which could be caused by an overwhelming volume of AIS B data. If you really believe your Class B transponder is going to sound an alarm on a merchant ship, you're a true optimist.

Hang on a minute, even when a SOLAS vessel filters out the class B target (like my transceiver's data) on their screen or printout it surely does not mean that my AIS receiver will not pick up their standard transmissions and thus they will still show up on MY system so that, if needs to be, I can take avoiding action or contact them well before a collision.

 

[pvb]

Hang on a minute, even when a SOLAS vessel filters out the class B target (like my transceiver's data) on their screen or printout it surely does not mean that my AIS receiver will not pick up their standard transmissions and thus they will still show up on MY system so that, if needs to be, I can take avoiding action or contact them well before a collision.

No, they just filter out the Class B stuff which might otherwise flood their systems. They still transmit themselves, so you'd still pick up their data.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

The argument is simple:

On large ships:
- Radar must be watched and interpreted. Often it is not, especially for small targets.
- AIS can be left unattended yet IT WILL SOUND an ALARM

On small crafts:
- Some have radar, but how many do have it turned on all the time? Especially on sailing yachts it drains batteries therefore it is turned on only when strictly necessary
- AIS receivers are cheap compared to a radar and they are becoming ever so more popular, easy to interface with a display, THEY ACTUALLY SOUND AN ALARM if there is a danger of collision

No, the argument isnt that simple.

SOLAS vessels might be obliged to have an AIS but they can turn it off and not transmit as many tankers do. You cannot be confident that they are monitoring it on the bridge and indeed if you sail on a SOLAS vessel you will be fairly confident that some crews will turn off the alarm which ios of course why the DSC sets were specified not to allow thisa possibility. And finally, lots of medium sized boats dont have to have an AIS transmitter anyway - many fishing vessels for example.

You are also assuming that the SOLAS ship's AIS will give out correct data but we already know that they give out heading rather than CMG and in some cases will say anchored when unedr way etc.

Many tests have shown that passive radar reflectors arent really much use - in one test they found that a bin bag full of cooking foil was as effective as a commercial yacht reflector. So dont judge radars effectiveness by your experience of a passive reflector. But you can expect an active transponder to be much more effective as long as the watch is alert enough to look at their radars.

But both these approaches are essentially passive - you are hoping that other vessels will operate to high standards and will spot you, rather than having half the crew on the bridge that they should have, and maybe even asleep. Much better to spot them and you take action for your own safety. So my first choice would be a decent yacht radar followed up by an AIS receiver.

 

[multihullsailor6]

SOLAS vessels might be obliged to have an AIS but they can turn it off and not transmit as many tankers do.
...
And finally, lots of medium sized boats dont have to have an AIS transmitter anyway - many fishing vessels for example.

I have so far only come across one SOLAS vessel which was not transmitting AIS information.

And the laws are changing, by 2014 all fishing vessels over 10m ? will have to have an AIS transceiver - and hopefully transmit!

 

[Conachair]

Well, given that this thread is about cruising here's my experience

SOLAS vessels might be obliged to have an AIS but they can turn it off and not transmit as many tankers do.

15,000 round the atlantic miles I saw 2 ships not transmitting. One was a rusty hulk off Senegal and the other a navy vessil.

You are also assuming that the SOLAS ship's AIS will give out correct data but we already know that they give out heading rather than CMG and in some cases will say anchored when unedr way etc.

I've no way of checking if they were putting out heading as cog but often the heading would be 511deg, which means no input from the heading compas ( i think). i never came across one without cog info. Even if it was heading (which seems unlikely as cog is easier to come by from the gps) who cares when it's doing 15kt. I never had any reason to doubt the accuracy of the info recieved.

I really think a lot of these posts are 180 deg out - the safe attitude cruising is that everyone else is asleep , drunk or both and out to get you. Having the best radar return in the world and transmitting ais is not necessarily going to help at all.

Though offshore the big boys i came across were never anything less than completely professional.

But you are on your own. you have to see them first, inshore the it's unlikely that any of the other boats even know of the existance of the irpcs, let alone know any rules.

As for the perenial ais/radar, well if you can afford radar you can afford a little ais. Different animals, radar is great if power hungry, not just for traffic but also for picking up incoming squals so you can be ready in the cockpit with the soap and shampoo

 

[Marsupial]

We sailed from Dover to the Med last year and carry radar and seeme. For three days across Biscay we had no targets on the radar and no alarms on the seame, only when on the Portugees coast did we see and hear anything and then not very much and nothing close quarters (within 5 miles). In the med the seame bliped a little bit but nothing like what we were used to in the Channel (continuious blips!), here in the ionian its all quiet with only an occasional ferry to see and hear with eyeballs radar and seeme. In other words a distinct lack of targets. Even during the day there is a lot of silence between buzzes on the seeme indicating that there is not a lot of "radar" around. Not sure an AIS would enhance the experience. Interestingly there are very few radar reflectors of anysort out here - unless the boat has red duster of course.

 

[prv]

I've only been on the bridge of sail training ships, but the watch officers there are professional mariners who also rotate through posts on everything from bulk carriers to container ships to cruise liners. So it seems fair to say that their habits apply to both.

Observing over many, many hours of watches, I can assure you that the radar is their eyes. If they're not doing anything else, they'll be sat in front of it. Radar is god to these guys, day or night, sun or fog. (Admittedly they have us amateurs doing the visual lookout - maybe they'd take a glance around themselves if we weren't there.) I once reported a visual sighting which hadn't shown up on radar (a wooden fishing boat off the coast of Portugal) and the second officer was taken aback at the discrepancy between "reality" on the orange screen and real reality outside.

The AIS is a little box with a text display mounted over to one side. People don't seem to look at it much.

If I wanted to be seen by commercial shipping, I know which technology I'd be making myself visible to.

Pete