Aircraft Carriers

[StugeronSteve]

Re: I differ. Quite strongly in fact.

We'd probably still be painting our faces with wode were it not for a bit of culture input.

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by StugeronSteve on 02/09/2003 21:59 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[jimi]

Re: take note of history

Think this diatribe is totally irrelevant to this particular issue
1) Do we need two(?) aircraft carriers
2) Have we signed a blank cheque
3) Has parliament been misled as to the cost
4) Is this money better spent elsewhere

As some of you know I live quite near Stonehenge and for a few years there's been a fuss about by passes and tunnels and suchlike. A tunnel has been opted for at a cost of £0.5 billion not only that it emerged last week that the tunnel will have to be closed once a week for cleaning etc.., leadind to traffic on local roads which will have to be strengthened to cope .. what the hell is this country coming to!!!

Oh despite these billions getting flung away, I've got to fork out £1K next year for a bus pass for my daughter to attend 6th form despite her having achieved 2A*s,and a further 7 A's in her GCE's .. well done Bryony ... bugger all thanks to the bozos running the country!

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[Mirelle]

What did the Romans do for us?

Roads? Plumbing? Reading and writing? Table manners? Central heating? Impartial justice? Public baths? Incorruptible civil service? Yeah, but what good did they really do for us?

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[zefender]

Re: Enoch speaks

What your post has to do with the subject of the post I'm not sure - but it warrants a response.

Your flawed analysis of events is not dissimilar to Enoch Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech so many years ago. You go beyond issues of mere cultural integration though. Assuming all illegal immigrants are thieves and ne'r do wells is dangerous nonsense. Crime in this country has been very high for many years and crime is committed not by johnie come lately immigrants but the vast majority by people who have always lived here (and thus mainly white). Sure there is a (relatively tiny) problem with organised gangs (mostly not from the 3rd world incidentally) but that's no reason to close the gates is it?. Our country does not have sufficient numbers of young people to maintain and generate our wealth. If we do not allow considerable numbers of immigrants a into this country then we will sink into the 3rd world you seem to dread. This situation is not unlike that in the U.S. which has a firm policy of immigration since it understands that, to keep people rising to the top economically, they need people to enter at the bottom.

There is of course another benefit in that cheap immigrant labour might even mean that the country might be able to build ships at a near reasonable cost.

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[chas]

Re: take note of history

I would prefer two carriers to a stonehenge underpass. One of the pleasures of driving to the West Country is passing the Stones, for obvious reasons. It will be a great pity if we cannot see them!

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[tcm]

Re: Enoch speaks

I agree.

One main difference tho, between US and UK is that the US inherently admits that its people have come from overseas, whereas the brits do not. The US makes it quite clear what the requirements are for citizenship, whereas the UK does not.

We never pledge allegiance to anything. The church is not disestablished, so should we be Christian? Or is it that we mustn't be anti-christian? Or merely not overtly "anti Cof E"? It is very unclear what any newcomers needs to do to become British, other than to be tolerated for as long as possible.

The home sec on r4 today said that it is vital to speak english - how else can we have a meaniful community? he said. The unspoken followup question was "ok, what about the EU?" but that's a slightly different matter.

There seems little acceptance of a "growing" economy in the style that you put it - much more one of a "fixed pie" where the lessons of lower taxes promnoting greater efforts and a greater tax take overall learnt in the eighties in the UK have been forgotten. The "fixed pie" model engenders the idea that there only so many jobs, and that interlopers and ne'r do-wells want to take them away - whereas in fact the truth is that many unemployed simply refuse to do low paid jobs.

One sad outcome of Enochs famous speech was the loss of Enoch Powell's powerful intellect to other aspects of UK politics. His speeches on economics are still relevant.

Perhaps another sad outcome was that he helped tip over the balance of arguments in favour of less intelligent people who could witlessly counter valid comments on immigration forever. For example, young black males still account for over 75% of street crime - but nobody is allowed to mention that, dearie me no. It's racist, so that's that. It doesn't matter how cleverly anyone puts the argument - look what happened to Enoch and they don't come any cleverer than him. University professor at a young age, self-taught in a dozen languages and on and on.

The sacking of Enoch Powell marked - perhaps coinicdentally but perhaps not- the beginning of the rise of the politically-correct and the demise of the respect for academic horsepower. Teachers in the fifties and sixties would be one of the pillars of society, but not any longer. Salaries of university staff, for example, between the seventies and the nineties only just kept pace with cost of living - but did not kep pace with rises in earnings. They never shared in any of the prosperity of oil, computers, economic miracle or otherwise.

The ridiculously over-cautious tiptoeing around any of these issues was fabulously demonstrated by "Ali G" - who interviewed authority figures with brainless questions and sprinkled his converstaion with frequent ignorance, sexism and references to drugs. Almost without exception (the exception being Tony Benn) they did not dare to comment on any of these traits. Being stupid is okay-they're disadvantged and it's not their fault. And being black gives huge extra margin - handle with care. The ghost of Enoch lives on.







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[jimi]

Re: Enoch speaks

In actual fact Enoch was MP for one of the most racially diverse constituencies and anyone that actually understood what he was saying understood he was not at all racist but warning of the problems of failing to manage real issues by ignoring them.

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[Gordonmc]

Re: take note of history

"Do we need two aircraft carriers?"

If the basic tenent of "defence" capability is that action will have to be engaged in away from UK shores then the answer is yes.

In the post-cold war beffudled thinking which affected both main parties there would be no place for heavy armour, a substantial naval presence or the nuclear deterrent. Dealing with the last first, there never was. Polaris and Trident were a cheap way of dealing with strategic threats and had more to do with foreign policy than defence (vis a vis) US relations.

Heavy armour? NATO discovered in Bosnia that nothing quite focussed the minds of Milosevec's baddies in technos and assorted warlords than a Challenger 2 parked at the end of the street.

So to aircraft carriers. Now we have given up our overseas bases the only way we can maintain air supremecy is from flat-tops. The concept of through-deck cruisers was based on short term actions which enabled establishment of beachheads and use of existing airfields for bringing in resources, including intercept aircraft. The Falklands proved the concept was flawed as Stanley was never available until after the end of the land battle and consequently the vulnerability of the supply lines almost brought disaster.

Talk of rapid reaction forces is fine for small police actions. Anything over battalion strength in-field needs the logistics and air cover only a carrier battle group can provide. If you can accept that argument, practical considerations mean you need two carriers, unless of course you intend having the carrier available 365 days a year ad infinitum with no refits, and no crew leave.

Of course, it might be argued we should no longer be involved in any action away from the UK. But that, as they say, is for another day.





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[tcm]

Re: racist

Mostly agreed - although Enoch never protested that he was not racist. But he vehemently disagreed with the feeble minded who univerally used the word "racist" in a derogatory manner. We cheer on the country of our birth, seek out and make friends more readily with those of the same cultural background, and cannot easily differentiate faces of other races. To a degree, we are naturally racist.

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[zefender]

Re: Enoch speaks

Yep. Enoch P a vastly smart man whose legacy was a perhaps a rather ill-timed, misquoted text. My main gripe was that he avoided distancing himself from what others took the message to be.

On black crime, colour is only one demographic characteristic which might apply to 75% of crime. You could also select poverty, poor education, poor diet, single parenting, absconding fathers etc etc. None of these are excuses, just demographics which might also play a part.

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[Twister_Ken]

BANG!

Every tanker I've ever seen has got N O S M O K I N G painted large across the front of its bridge. They even have to carry special kit like sealed spark-proof torches. And then the Admiralty goes and sticks missile launchers on top of one?

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[GeorgeP]

Do you think TB will be pulling that one again

...this year?

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[andy_wilson]

Re: Go on then!

There was a great program on the telly recently.

Fred Dibnah in a water pumping house. They had so much money left having come in under budget, they decorated the place with fancy iron work and mouldings. The only people to see it were the works manager and the engineers.

What did the Victorians know that we didn't then?

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[Peppermint]

Re: Paid people to do things

not to count them.

In those days we had an Empire to run. We had 2000'ish civil servants. I'd reckon we've got a few more than that now.

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[Aja]

Re: Enoch speaks

"For example, young black males still account for over 75% of street crime - but nobody is allowed to mention that, dearie me no. "

That surely must be very selective.

If that is this case in Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow or Belfast then it surely would be a talking point!

Back to the point though I'm in favour of two Aircraft carriers. Both traditionally Clyde built, using rivets and steel plate and giving full employment to ship builders on the Clyde. In fact, it would mean that there would have to be a reeducation of ship builders on the clye as all these skills have been lost. Forever.

Donald



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[tcm]

Re: Enoch speaks

sorry, that was in the met police area. And as others have pointed out, other factors could provide more significance such as wealth, background etc .


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[Guest]

But they don\'t have to

have intrinsically safe marked on it !!!!



<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Heckler]

typical left wing liberal thinking

you have missed the whole point of the post and gone on to do what all liberal thinkers do which is rubbish the person who has the temerity to raise a subject which is considered to be taboo.
1: my remarks were also directed at other 3rd world nationals who have stayed where they are.
2: i repeat, "they" want what we have, "they" out number us,
3: the first post was making reference to warships and the post i replied to said that they were not needed,
4: i disagreed using my round the houses story to prove we do, but also said this lot were not capable of bringing the projects in.
stu


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[Peppermint]

Re: Speaking of Flaws

How do we employ the cheap labour? We have minimum wages and other employment and red tape considerations that add cost not value. Don't kid yourself that immigration will ever pay for itself in our lifetime.

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[Peppermint]

Re: The answer is not Aircraft Carriers

They're useless for coastal patroling anyway.

The answer is to improve the lot of the 3rd world populations in-situ.

By making it tougher to get here and improving their lot at home you might turn the situation around.

Of course that will mean exporting jobs.

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