Advice please, head's spinning...

[tomcourtney]

Is there an 'economical' cruiser out there which will allow our dream to be realised? iwith a £50k to £60k budget.
We don't need sports handling and general seakeeping is more important.
We are used to living in a confined space having toured the UK extensively in a VW camper so size is not critical.

We plan to island hop in the Aegean from our base on Crete for several months at a time. As mileage will be small in relation to time on these 'voyages' we can afford this lifestyle on our pensions but we have a limited purchase budget unless we downsize the house which we may yet do

My wife and I will do extensive training, hopefully on our own boat as we are both total beginners to boating. We would prefer a motor cruiser as sails seem a lot more complicated, but with our romantic heads on we have drooled over a 1962 'gentlemans motor yacht', a simple sail arrangement and twin 60hp diesels seems a good combination but 50 yr old engines and an oak and teak build will be expensive to maintain in a hot climate. Is their a modern equivalent?
Hundreds, possibly thousands of miles looking at boats, Hundreds of pounds on magazines and weeks, probably months of my spare time. Hours spent listening to salesmen telling me what they want me to hear....

 

[Seahope]

Is there an 'economical' cruiser out there which will allow our dream to be realised? iwith a £50k to £60k budget.
We don't need sports handling and general seakeeping is more important.
We are used to living in a confined space having toured the UK extensively in a VW camper so size is not critical.

We plan to island hop in the Aegean from our base on Crete for several months at a time. As mileage will be small in relation to time on these 'voyages' we can afford this lifestyle on our pensions but we have a limited purchase budget unless we downsize the house which we may yet do

My wife and I will do extensive training, hopefully on our own boat as we are both total beginners to boating. We would prefer a motor cruiser as sails seem a lot more complicated, but with our romantic heads on we have drooled over a 1962 'gentlemans motor yacht', a simple sail arrangement and twin 60hp diesels seems a good combination but 50 yr old engines and an oak and teak build will be expensive to maintain in a hot climate. Is their a modern equivalent?
Hundreds, possibly thousands of miles looking at boats, Hundreds of pounds on magazines and weeks, probably months of my spare time. Hours spent listening to salesmen telling me what they want me to hear....

Hi and welcome to the Forum.

When it comes to boating there is no such thing as economical Everything will cost you more than you think unless you are a very practical man and can do things yourself. Even then the parts are not cheap and I still find the concept of paying the cost of a hotel room just to leave a boat somewhere for a night ridiculous.

It is great to have a dream and yours sounds fun.

My experience is fairly limited with boating and (hopefully) not at all typical. Common sense tells me that some older boats will be very good value but as you have already identified age could cause a higher rate of mechanical failures etc. The maintenance records are key for any boat as an older boat that has been well looked after could be more reliable than a poorly maintained boat a few years old.

It does sound as though you are looking for a semi-displacement craft. If you want a sail to provide better economy then unless you have good sailing skills you will need more training than for a pure motor boat.

Perhaps, your first step is to take some training?

I am sure plenty of people will be along shortly to give you some good advice. The expertise to be found here is truly amazing!

 

[Greg2]

For your planned cruising I thnk you would be better off with a yacht. You will get more boat for your money, running on the engine will use miserly amounts of fuel and when the wind is right sailing in the Greek islands is superb.

My suggestion would be to go on a group charter with one of the many companies that do stuff for beginners e.g. Sunsail. You will get the hang of things fairly quickly - it is like everything you haven't done before......not so hard when someone shows you how. Also worth doing some training e.g. RYA Dayskipper would be sufficient.

We are motor boaters in the UK but have chartered a yacht in the Greek islands and my choice would be for sail over there, particularly on a pension.

Hope this helps.

 

[barryalan]

Hi Tom,
You may be surprised by the low cruising speed of a displacement motor vessel and fuel costs are a major issue even at (economic )cruising speeds. The ability to hoist a sail on your boat has safety,economy and sheer enjoyment benefits.
Sailing at a functional level is much less complex than many people imagine.

Book that RYA course! Its a great time to buy. Lots of boats on the market at low prices. Check out the costs for lifting out before you buy. Boatyard prices here in Greece have risen steeply in recent years.

Wishing you good luck and great sailing. Barry

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

IMHO you should definitely steer clear of any kind of 1962 boat unless you're very handy with the tools and have loads of time (and money) to waste on maintaining her. For real fuel economy, you going to need to stick to relatively slow displacement speeds and for the same reason, a single engined boat would be better than twins and reduce your maintenance bills too. What about considering a 10-20yr old Dutch single engined steel cruiser which should fall into your price bracket? They usually have plenty of accomodation too, especially if they have an aft cabin

 

[sarabande]

have a chat with Caer Urfa of this forum. He knows about m/sailors, especially the Colvic Watsons.


I had one for six years and it answered all the accommodation problems, cruising under power (single 90hp diesel), and impeccable weatherliness. They come with a/c if you going to the Med

 

[DavidJ]

Suggest you post a similar message on the liveaboard forum of this site. I've met dozens of livaboards living the dream during my regular brief periods in the Med and all have yachts.....there must be a compelling reason for this!!

 

[tomcourtney]

Seahope, Greg2, Barryalan -
I take your points re sailing, suppose I have a bit of a block with it, looks hard work. I am more comfortable with the idea of cruising on a motor boat.
I have researched Day Skipper courses In the Aegean and we are looking forward to doing one. In the meantime I have bought loads of books to study in advance.
To justify my preference for motors -
I see our annual trips typically visiting a 12 to 15 islands in say the Cyclades for example. 7 to 14 days on each island, 15 to 20 weeks say and a round trip distance from Crete of around 450 miles or so. This works out to 25 miles per week ish. Fuel for this type of trip is therefore not a huge consideration so motorboating makes sense.
A motor yacht setup would be great if there was enough power to ignore the sails in anything other than ideal conditions.

Deleted User -
Can you give me something to google re Dutch steel boats ie. a manufacturer or model. Like the sound of them, steel, solid, but are they heavy to push around?

Sarabande -
Checking out Colvic Watsons, thanks. Hope Caer Urfa responds.

Davidj -
Take your point and will transfer to the Liveaboard section when I've taken in all the good points from here. Can't fault the logic re liveaboards preferring sails but is my motor preference for our proposed lifestyle detailed in my example above so flawed?. Maybe it is ... that's why I'm here asking for advice, my mind's still open.

 

[stillwaters]

Deleted User -
Can you give me something to google re Dutch steel boats ie. a manufacturer or model. Like the sound of them, steel, solid, but are they heavy to push around?



Just in case Deleted User doesn't pick up on this,here's a Dutch site that should give you a feel for what you can expect for your money. It will allow you to put your size,budget,type etc. into its search engine - bear in mind that prices should be negotiable so you might be able to aim a little over your budget.
www.botentekoop.nl

Just one question,though. Not sure from what you say,how much time you have spent on the water so far,particularly in the area you are considering. Depending on this,it might be a good idea to go on the training course you mentioned before making any firm decisions.

 

[Tranona]

You will find the Aegean a fairly windy place in the summer months. You will also find very few people seriously cruising in motor boats for all sorts of reasons. The first is the higher cost of moving around, second is the lack of resources to support motor boating, and finally, more importantly with that sort of budget a severe shortage of boats to buy - following from the previous points. You will therefore almost certainly have to buy a boat elsewhere and sail (motor) it there as road deliveries are problematic. As some have already said avoid older boats as the climate is very harsh on external finishes, so anything that needs paint and varnish becomes an ongoing DIY project rather than a platform for cruising - fine if you like that sort of thing.

As you will have seen, most cruisers use sailing boats as they are much more suitable for the environment, and no more difficult to handle than a MOBO - plenty of relative novices charter such boats and have no problems. For that budget you could get a relatively modern 35 footer, perhaps an ex-charter boat, fully equipped for Med cruising. There are several charter operations that also offer RYA tuition but obviously focused on Med style sailing where the key skills are knowing how to park the boat and when not to go sailing, rather than learning all the finer points of navigation in fiercely tidal waters as you need to in the UK. Modern sailboats have quite powerful engines and one of the criticisms of Med "sailing" is that there is perhaps too much motoring!

Suggest you get a skippered charter for a week with an instructor on a suitable boat. Not only will you have a great holiday, but it will give you a very good idea if it is for you. You might try SailIonian who are on Levkas and are an RYA centre with British skippers. The Ionian is a great place to learn as the weather is relatively benign and the distances between islands and harbours short. Sailing Holidays and Corfu Yachting in Corfu also offer packages.

BTW we had our 37 footer in Corfu for 10 years and can say that once you get the basics, boat handling and sailing is really not difficult and the lifestyle for two oldies on that size of boat is great and very economical.

 

[jac]

Don't worry about motoring a sailing boat

Virtually every sailing boat built in the last 30-40 years will have a more than adequate engine to allow you to motor anywhere that you want + generate all the battery power etc that is required. In additiona - as a sailing boat you will be able to unfurl the sails ( or hoist if more labour intensive) and enjoy the peace!!

Most MOBOs seem to be built on the assumption that you want planing speed and by definition will cost a lot. 2 engines are twice the servicing of 1, MOBOs of the liveaboard size seem to have engines 100hp + a sailing boat will be 40hp - maybe 50. Thats less maintenance and less fuel.

As others have said - if you have no experience , charter first - or at least see if you can cadge an experience trip on other peoples boats, then spend your money

 

[tomcourtney]

The consensus so far is pointing me towards sail and I can't fault the logic in that.
Motor yachts seem to be a reasonable compromise so I have joined the Colvic Watson yahoo group to learn about them and will schedule a trip or two to have a look. Any other motor sailers out there worth considering or yachts with a motor capable of extended use?

My preference is motor...
Surely there is a cat B or a robust cat C motor cruiser out there which will give a 4 mpg or better consumption at cruising speeds in average Aegean / med sea conditions.
Any suggestions.

 

[Imperial One]

Hi Tomcourtney,
We have just a bit of knowledge on Dutch Cruisers as this is our main sphere of operation. There are some of them that are good for inland and coastal use but not too great at sea on a regular basis. If this is your chosen coure be careful what you opt for, an absolute minimum of Cat B for sure. Please call for a chat and of course lots of free advice and/or look at our website and that of our colleagues at YachtGallery.com where you will find many boats that might suit.

 

[Tranona]

The consensus so far is pointing me towards sail and I can't fault the logic in that.
Motor yachts seem to be a reasonable compromise so I have joined the Colvic Watson yahoo group to learn about them and will schedule a trip or two to have a look. Any other motor sailers out there worth considering or yachts with a motor capable of extended use?

My preference is motor...
Surely there is a cat B or a robust cat C motor cruiser out there which will give a 4 mpg or better consumption at cruising speeds in average Aegean / med sea conditions.
Any suggestions.

There are certainly displacement or SD cruisers built that would be suitable - trouble is they are either not available in your price bracket or more importantly rarely available in Greece. However you slice it, you will spend a min £10k moving a boat from Northern Europe to Greece, which is a big chunk out of your £50k, plus significant expenditure on gear to make it suitable for the environment. People do it, both sail and motor, but usually because their project (often retirement dream) is a slow passage either through the canals or round the outside, ending up in Greece/Turkey 3 or 4 years later. You will find Motor sailers of the Watson type are sometimes used because they have good accommodation for the size and crucially have shallower draft for the canals. However, they are not necessarily ideal for hot weather living, having been based on North Sea fishing boats where the requirements are very different. You will, however, find those or similar types of boats for sale out there when people have finished their "dream" and don't want, or can't afford to bring the boat back. These can be good buys, but can also be well past their use by date.

90%+ of your time will be spent at anchor or tied up to a quay. Moving from one island to another is no more difficult in a modern sailboat than a displacement motor boat when you are not bound by a schedule.

Give it a try!

 

[neale]

My preference is motor...
Surely there is a cat B or a robust cat C motor cruiser out there which will give a 4 mpg or better consumption at cruising speeds in average Aegean / med sea conditions.
Any suggestions.

If 4mpg is your benchmark then you could get a fast, smallish (sub 30ft) sportscruiser with a single diesel and an outdrive. I average about 5mpg, poss 5.5mpg in my Bayliner from memory.

 

[Nautorius]

The consensus so far is pointing me towards sail and I can't fault the logic in that.
Motor yachts seem to be a reasonable compromise so I have joined the Colvic Watson yahoo group to learn about them and will schedule a trip or two to have a look. Any other motor sailers out there worth considering or yachts with a motor capable of extended use?

My preference is motor...
Surely there is a cat B or a robust cat C motor cruiser out there which will give a 4 mpg or better consumption at cruising speeds in average Aegean / med sea conditions.
Any suggestions.

Not Sure about the MPG, But ticking over this kind of Old Princess/Fairline will handle the seas well and has good space on board and could squeeze in a 12m berth as well.....

There is a deal to be done and it sure is a lot of quality boat for the money...

http://www.boatshed.com/princess_415-boat-135742.html

No Connection, just sat in my Marina...

Paul

 

[LittleShip]

PM sent.

Tom

 

[tomcourtney]

Sorry I've been missing for a few weeks, family things to sort, Mother's 80th and Daughter's wedding.
I appreciate all the advice I've had and I'm a lot closer to gameplan now.
I will post and research the Liveaboard forum as well as take a sailing holiday. I will also plan a trip to Holland to get a feel for my favourite at this time - Dutch Steel Cruisers.
I will also post a thread to beg some experience anywhere I can by swabbing decks and assisting with fuel costs.


Roundup -

Greg2, Tranona, jac
Sailing holiday is a must, you're correct it would be silly to make a decision without some sail experience. Dutch steel cruisers exciting me though.
barryalan
Where in Greece are you, beautiful boat.
Deleted User, Imperial One
I'm on the case, excited about the dutch steel cruisers, bit nervous of a single engine with no backup though.
DavidJ
Been lurking on the Liveaboard Forum and will be posting soon, thanks.
stillwaters
Thanks for the link, you're correct in that I have no recent experience and will be doing the course first when we arrive next Spring. Will probably wait to purchase till next year now (if I'm sensible)
neale
Cat B sports cruisers could do the job but I'd more comfortable with a Vital Spark (google may be necessary)
Nautorius
I haven't discounted an older Princess or Fairline but I think it would be better to run smaller engines at cruising speeds than tickover the larger engines generally found in these boats.
neale, LittleShip
We all have different tastes, I find some sports cruisers a bit too 'Peter Stringfellow' and the trawler style a bit too utilitarian.
Hope I'm not upsetting anyone

 

[LittleShip]

Utilitarian............. Grand Banks Trawlers are the quality end of cruising....the cheek of it
Tom

 

[Wavey]

I'm on the case, excited about the dutch steel cruisers, bit nervous of a single engine with no backup though.

Think of all the dutch steel boat owners who have happily managed on a single for years, not to mention all the commercial fishing boats too.