adapting - sailing again 30 years on

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

First of all, welcome back to sailing, and welcome to the forum.
As yourself and your father are both self-taught, could I suggest that you both take formal practical courses at an RYA approved sailing school and that you take aTheory Course over the winter. The suggestion that your son should take up dinghy sailing is a good one, perhaps also taking a Theory Course this winter or next, perhaps also taking a Competent Crew or Day Skipper course at some stage.
In your initial acquisition of sailing skills, you, and your father, will have developed many bad habits and, no doubt, a lack of knowledge of the finer points of boat handling, as demonstrated by your original post. Formal training will help to eliminate these, and can only add to your skills.
No disrespect to your past experience on boats, but at this stage I think you should consider yourself a beginner.
I shudder at the thought of untrained persons venturing out in a boat even in fine weather, let alone the brisk conditions that you describe.

 

[johnalison]

The main sheet is at the helm so that can be adjusted whilst helming. In hindsight, it would have been better to dump the sheet than to luff up, as you suggest. The loss of way resulted in exactly what you describe.

The winches are not self tailing so sheeting in the genoa isn't easy whilst helming, and the boat didn't really want to sail itself in those conditions.

Previous boat was a long keeler and I'm still getting used to the amount of steering input needed on this one.

I'm glad you can reach the mainsheet, unlike some of these fancy new boats with the sheet led back over the coachroof. It is important that the mainasheet arrangement works easily and that the cleat holds it securely, unlike that of a friend whose sheet slips out too easily.

A boat without self-tailers is a bit like a car without windscreen wipers - not something I would want to go out in. I know that new winches are expensive but proper self-tailers will transform your sailing and give you much more enjoyment. They are a bit like having an extra crew member on board. It will soon be Christmas.

 

[dunedin]

The boat is a Westerly Storm 33.

Great choice of boat, they tend to sail very well (once had a chance to get familiar and optimise the setup).

From your other replies you clearly have relevant experience and a fast learning approach, which bodes well for the future sailing.

You have already learnt some good lessons - including the one about “if you think you need a reef, do it now - if you think you could shake out the reef, put the kettle on first”
Not sure if the jib has a foam luff or rope luff? Or indeed how old the genoa is. But an old sail without a foam luff will never set well to windward part reefed, hence again reefing the main first. A good new genoa with a foam luff can transform a boats sailing performance and enjoyment, so worth considering if the current sail is past its prime.

Now that the delivery trip is over, doing plenty of sailing without having a fixed destination (out and back) will give you the opportunity to learn the boat, practice technique and decide on any tweaks needed.

Great boat, happy sailing

 

[Chae_73]

Genoa is getting on a bit and doesn't have a foam luff. It's a tri-radial so presumably a decent sail in its day, but being kept on the furler all year round probably hasn't helped it. I don't know the exact age but it appears to be quite a bit older than the main which is still nice and crisp.

New foresail is on the list of things to arrange for next season.

 

[dunedin]

Genoa is getting on a bit and doesn't have a foam luff. It's a tri-radial so presumably a decent sail in its day, but being kept on the furler all year round probably hasn't helped it. I don't know the exact age but it appears to be quite a bit older than the main which is still nice and crisp.

New foresail is on the list of things to arrange for next season.

Good plan. And that explains quite a lot. Foam or rope luff is essential to specify. A boat like a Storm will benefit from good sails.

If you keep the boat afloat for all year sailing, keep the old sail and hoist it through the winter months for short day sails etc, to keep the new sail good. I have just swapped our expensive North jib off to put on our “winter jib” - a second hand purchase.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

The main sheet is at the helm so that can be adjusted whilst helming. In hindsight, it would have been better to dump the sheet than to luff up, as you suggest. The loss of way resulted in exactly what you describe.

The winches are not self tailing so sheeting in the genoa isn't easy whilst helming, and the boat didn't really want to sail itself in those conditions.

Previous boat was a long keeler and I'm still getting used to the amount of steering input needed on this one.

You have crew who can tail.

 

[mrming]

I would second the 100% jib recommendation. Our Fulmar came with one - much easier for the family to tack. If the weather is very light we’re motoring anyway so don’t miss the extra sail area. Regarding the autohelm, I sail with my partner and two small kids. As soon as we’re on a long enough leg the autohelm goes on, and stays on until we reach harbour at the other end. I’ll use it to tack / bear away etc so I can help with the sheets. Am thinking about getting a spare drive unit as we rely on it so much!

 

[Concerto]

I would second the 100% jib recommendation. Our Fulmar came with one - much easier for the family to tack. If the weather is very light we’re motoring anyway so don’t miss the extra sail area. Regarding the autohelm, I sail with my partner and two small kids. As soon as we’re on a long enough leg the autohelm goes on, and stays on until we reach harbour at the other end. I’ll use it to tack / bear away etc so I can help with the sheets. Am thinking about getting a spare drive unit as we rely on it so much!

If you are using a tiller pilot on a Fulmar, they are OK but a Fulmar is over the weight limit. I changed to a Raymarine Evolution 100 tiller as all the electronics except the control head and ram are below. The ram is also much larger and more powerful. It has been used in some rough weather and worked well. You can see it working at 5.57 in this video. <iframe width="560" height="315" src="

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[mrming]

If you are using a tiller pilot on a Fulmar, they are OK but a Fulmar is over the weight limit. I changed to a Raymarine Evolution 100 tiller as all the electronics except the control head and ram are below. The ram is also much larger and more powerful. It has been used in some rough weather and worked well. You can see it working at 5.57 in this video. <iframe width="560" height="315" src="

" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Yes it’s the EV-100 I’ve got. Have used it in some quite rough weather on delivery. I’ve found it prefers to steer to the wind rather than a bearing in big waves downwind.

 

[fredrussell]

…A boat without self-tailers is a bit like a car without windscreen wipers - not something I would want to go out in. I know that new winches are expensive but proper self-tailers will transform your sailing and give you much more enjoyment. They are a bit like having an extra crew member on board. It will soon be Christmas.

Totally agree with this. Keep an eye on eBay for a pair of 40’s for sheet winches. They do come up now and then.

 

[doug748]

how to summarise?

I learned to sail with my father in dinghys and then yachts, we were largely self taught, figured it out as we went along. by the time I was 18, I was a moderately competent sailor.

30 years went by where we didn't sail. Now I'm 48, he's 73 and I have a 17 year old son (and a younger one but he wasn't here today).

We bought a boat at the end of last season but haven't done a great deal of sailing this season, so this boat is still quite new to us.

Today we took the boat from it' mooring on the Deben round to the Orwell, It was a beat into F3-F5 with a typical choppy sea. So it's me, my 73 year old father and my 17 year old son. My son likes sailing but has no experience or training.

The problem I find is that I'm stuck to the helm. So I can't get the sails trimmed as I would like or do anything much other than helm. We are slightly pressed at times, I'm luffing a little in the gusts. One time I get it wrong, pinch up too far and back the genoa, not enough way on the boat to get her back on the right tack and there is a minute of confusion until I realise we need to let off the foresail sheet.

I'm not really happy about how we are sailing, we seem stopped in the water at times and then healing too much (rationally I think this is because the hull is quite foul after a season of mainly being on the mooring and the poor sail trim, but at time time it was worrying me).

On a more benign point of wind I would have put on the autohelm but I don't think it's going to work in these conditions (in fact, it probably would have).

So we achieve this trivial passage with a couple of minor alarms and get to where we where headed for (SYH). The crew enjoyed the trip. Whilst I was satisfied that we achieved our objective, I'm thinking that we need to become a bit more effective.

1) maybe I should have stuck on the autohelm and taken over sail trimming duties?
2) how do I help my son learn enough to take the helm / mange the boat?
3) should I encourage my father to grow or re-learn his sailing techniques?
4) get some crewing experience myself, get my confidence back, learn some more?

As the others have said, any trip were the crew is happy and you got there unscathed, is a good trip. It sounds to me like you could have been luffing mixed with the crew not sheeting in tightly enough, which is understandable. A lively boat will find the wind when overpressed, you may have been happier accepting the crew were struggling, bearing away and tacking through greater angles ( plus using that autopilot and reefing right down, as mentioned).

Self tailing winches are nice but maybe not nice enough to spend 2.5 grand on. Sometimes you can get a pair of non tailer's a size up from what you have - which would greatly help. That is what I did and I was lucky to get a pair of new, unfitted Lewmars for £400.

.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

how to summarise?

I learned to sail with my father in dinghys and then yachts, we were largely self taught, figured it out as we went along. by the time I was 18, I was a moderately competent sailor.

30 years went by where we didn't sail. Now I'm 48, he's 73 and I have a 17 year old son (and a younger one but he wasn't here today).

We bought a boat at the end of last season but haven't done a great deal of sailing this season, so this boat is still quite new to us.

Today we took the boat from it' mooring on the Deben round to the Orwell, It was a beat into F3-F5 with a typical choppy sea. So it's me, my 73 year old father and my 17 year old son. My son likes sailing but has no experience or training.

The problem I find is that I'm stuck to the helm. So I can't get the sails trimmed as I would like or do anything much other than helm. We are slightly pressed at times, I'm luffing a little in the gusts. One time I get it wrong, pinch up too far and back the genoa, not enough way on the boat to get her back on the right tack and there is a minute of confusion until I realise we need to let off the foresail sheet.

I'm not really happy about how we are sailing, we seem stopped in the water at times and then healing too much (rationally I think this is because the hull is quite foul after a season of mainly being on the mooring and the poor sail trim, but at time time it was worrying me).

On a more benign point of wind I would have put on the autohelm but I don't think it's going to work in these conditions (in fact, it probably would have).

So we achieve this trivial passage with a couple of minor alarms and get to where we where headed for (SYH). The crew enjoyed the trip. Whilst I was satisfied that we achieved our objective, I'm thinking that we need to become a bit more effective.

1) maybe I should have stuck on the autohelm and taken over sail trimming duties?
2) how do I help my son learn enough to take the helm / mange the boat?
3) should I encourage my father to grow or re-learn his sailing techniques?
4) get some crewing experience myself, get my confidence back, learn some more?

If my previous advice , (Post#21), to do courses does not appeal, you could take your crew out on a day with a fairly benign day and sail a
'figure of eight' course across the wind so that you can practice tacking efficiently. You can teach your crew how to sheet in quickly as the jib passes in front of the mast, allowing most of the work to be done before the boat comes on the wind.
The advantage of this point of sail ( Beam Reach), is that the sail does not have to be sheeted in tightly. Give someoe the job of sheeting in the main also, although the helmsman should really be the one doing this, and in the event of a gust be ready to dump the main yourself, until your crew is up to speed. You can very soon start to rotate the jobs, giving all of your crew a chance to helm. You should brief everyone on these evolutions, using a whiteboard, or at least a pencil and paper, before casting off. Also show them how to load up a winch properly, how to tail, and how to ease a loaded sheet safely. There will inevitably be riding turns, so they will need to be shown what to do when this happens.
A couple of hours of this is enough for one session.
For the next session, when everyone is at home with tacking you can use a 'racecourse'- shaped course to introduce gybeing, the rough version, just letting the boom go over as it wants, when the stern turns through the wind. MAKE SURE THAT THE MAINSHEET IS ONLY SHEETED OUT FAR ENOUGH FOR THE BOOM TO BE JUST OVER THE BOAT'S QUARTER A light breeze and a safety briefing ,("keep your head down", "don't get in the way of the mainsheet", etc.),will be mandatory for this, and perhaps two reefs and only a scrap of jib. You can roll out the finer points of Gybeing to Change Direction, (centreing the sail quickly, then releasing as the jib drops and the top of the main's leech starts to backwind), once the principles have been established, and everyone has had plenty of practice, in all crew positions. Gybeing the Sail, while remaining on a run can come much later!
Heaving-to is a very useful manoeuvre for when you want to take a calm break, for whatever reason, particularly if something stressful happens and you need a quiet moment to calm someone's nerves, or to impart some instruction.
There is always the possibility that someone will fall overboard, and if it's yourself, you will want your crew to be aware of the actions to be taken; teach them how to stop the boat, by Lying-To, but preferably by doing an Emergency Heave-to. When they know how to do this, introduce the M.O.B manoeuvre, and it's not sufficient for someone to hook the fender and bucket while the boat is careering along at a speed enough to drag their arms from their sockets, they need to know how to position the boat so as to approach the casualty on a Broad Reach and control the speed by "Spilling-and-Filling", such that they have enough way on to not be drifted downwind or downtide, and at the same time be able to bring the boat to a complete stop with the casualty abeam of the shrouds on the windward side. They also need to know that someone should also have the casualty in sight at all times, and how to make a "Mayday " call on the VHF. You need to get everyone who will crew frequently with you trained in this way as early as possible, as someone's life may depend on it.

Post has been edited and added to.

 

[scottie]

You need an auto helm it would seem

 

[Wing Mark]

You need an auto helm it would seem

I think the OP needs some applause for getting on with it and making a successful passage and learning stuff.