Ad hoc wipedown of fouling when dried out - Products?

[Mark-1]

This season, dried out at low tides, I'm going to regularly visit the boat with a squeegy mop to remove slime before it becomes weed etc. (It will get a mid season fresh coat of AF as well, but that's not what I'm asking about.)

Plan is to use salt water in a bucket. Is there anything I can legally/sensibly add to the bucket of salt water to kill/discourage growth? I could use fresh water if that made a difference.

 

[Sandy]

Plan is to use salt water in a bucket. Is there anything I can legally/sensibly add to the bucket of salt water to kill/discourage growth? I could use fresh water if that made a difference.

Anything that you add, including fresh water, will be diluted within 15 nanoseconds of the tide touching the surface.

 

[Mark-1]

Anything that you add, including fresh water, will be diluted within 15 nanoseconds of the tide touching the surface.

It will have done its job by then! I meant kill what's there, not prevent future growth. Sorry, should have been clearer.

EDIT: EG: washing up liquid? (Useless?) Kitchen cleaner? (Illegal?) Bleach (Illegal + Creates Gas?) Patio magic? (I use it on my spray hood so a go-er?)

 

[Plum]

This season, dried out at low tides, I'm going to regularly visit the boat with a squeegy mop to remove slime before it becomes weed etc. (It will get a mid season fresh coat of AF as well, but that's not what I'm asking about.)

Plan is to use salt water in a bucket. Is there anything I can legally/sensibly add to the bucket of salt water to kill/discourage growth? I could use fresh water if that made a difference.

No. just use salt water and a squeegy or soft brush. The only benefit of using fresh water is if you can use a freshwater hose attached to your mop handle so it constantly sprays water where you are mopping, much quicker than constantly dipping mop into a bucket and frequently refilling bucket. Alternatively, wear waders and start as soon as it is shallow enough and while you have water around you and work downwards as the tide falls.

 

[johnalison]

I have a telescopic pole that accepts scouring pads. The softest of these might be easier to work with than a brush.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The only thing that might help is bleach; that would sterilize the surface and mean that fouling organisms would have to start from scratch. Hydrogen peroxide might work, and there's no real reason not to use household bleach; it doesn't have any lasting environmental effects (think about it - seawater has plenty of chlorine in it already!). As fouling starts with the development of a biofilm, which won't be completely removed by scrubbing or wiping, eradicating it by using a sterlizing agent such as bleach will lengthen the time before treatment is required again.

 

[thinwater]

It will have done its job by then! I meant kill what's there, not prevent future growth. Sorry, should have been clearer.

EDIT: EG: washing up liquid? (Useless?) Kitchen cleaner? (Illegal?) Bleach (Illegal + Creates Gas?) Patio magic? (I use it on my spray hood so a go-er?)

Patio Magic is a pesticide. Obviously. Read the label. The short answer to your question is that no, there is nothing you can or should put on the bottom. Never under any circumstances. Most things will just make it worse, the rest won't change anything.

As for things like bleach, the greater problem is the negative effect they can have on the paint's copper release properties. Additionally, the bleach will lose it's activity in minutes once in the water. The net result is that you will be painting sooner.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Patio Magic is a pesticide. Obviously. Read the label. The short answer to your question is that no, there is nothing you can or should put on the bottom. Never under any circumstances. Most things will just make it worse, the rest won't change anything.

As for things like bleach, the greater problem is the negative effect they can have on the paint's copper release properties. Additionally, the bleach will lose it's activity in minutes once in the water. The net result is that you will be painting sooner.

View attachment 174705

Using bleach will somewhat delay the formation of the initial biofilm, slightly slowing the inevitable growth of fouling. Merely cleaning will leave traces of biofilm allowing more rapid colonization. I entirely agree that there is no lasting effect; the point is simply to push the process of colonization by fouling organisms back a step. However, your point about the effect on copper based antifouling may well be correct, but I assumed that the OP wasn't using antifouling.

 

[Mark-1]

Using bleach will somewhat delay the formation of the initial biofilm, slightly slowing the inevitable growth of fouling. Merely cleaning will leave traces of biofilm allowing more rapid colonization. I entirely agree that there is no lasting effect; the point is simply to push the process of colonization by fouling organisms back a step. However, your point about the effect on copper based antifouling may well be correct, but I assumed that the OP wasn't using antifouling.

You've understood exactly what I'm trying to achieve - I'll be sponging slime off. If it were legal and possible, I'd like the residual slime to be deaded and the growth process reset to scratch.

I *am* using antifouling, but this year I've used hard antifouling in the hope it will stand up to the regular wipe downs I plan to administer. I have very little faith in AF these days. Everyone I know seems to do a mid-season scrub, at least.

I'm intrigued at the mechanism by which 'stuff like bleach' stops the copper releasing from AF. Anyone?

 

[thinwater]

... but I assumed that the OP wasn't using antifouling.

In his first post he said "It will get a mid season fresh coat of AF as well, but that's not what I'm asking about."

You can really damamge antifouling paint with strong chemicals. Acid washing the hull, for example, does some damamge.

---

That said, he brings up an interesting point. I have 30 test panels in the water now for Practical Sailor Magazine, at about the 30-month mark. Most are failing, so a good time for the the test. I'll be doing the 30-month inspection in a few weeks, so I will try bleach on 1/2 a pannel, just to see what happen. No point in trying Patio Magic. If nothing else, there is intellectual curiosity to be served! Better to know than guess.

 

[Neeves]

The best thing you can do, especially as you are using hard AF, is to wipe off before the hull dries. Once its dry you will need to scrub and wiping, even with hard AF, will remove some AF but not as much had you used an ablative and allowed the slime to dry out.

The ideal way is to start wiping as soon as the first 6" to 1' of AF is exposed - but this does mean warm water, not too much chop and/or waders. Then you can wipe on a wet, saturated, hull. Just start 'anywhere' and work you way round the hull wiping a 1' section until you are back where you started - and then continue. Its all a bit more pleasant if you have someone working with you - it breaks the monotony. A sponge attached to hard backing material is the way to go, floor squeegee on a short handle

We did what you intend regularly on Josepheline, its easier but takes longer on a multihull. Our tides are a bit parsimonious at only 2m, and we draw 1m. The water might be warmer - but we still wore chest high waders. We would start wiping once the stem was clear of the water.



In Manta the the tuna fisherman do the whole thing between tides, including the AF itself, in this case Hempel's Olympic. They are actually applying the AF as the tide comes in.


If you wipe the hard AF you will expose a new, fresh surface which will be 'pure' AF uncontaminated (well almost) by slime. Slime itself is not a big issue - except its the barrier created between the sea and the AF allowing fouling to seriously develop.

Any AF needs to 'move' regularly to be effective as the movement, for an ablative, exposes fresh AF and movement for a hard AF 'washes' the fouling off - before it gets a real grip. Once fouling has a grip you are on the slippery slope and its downhill all the way.

Adding bleach will kill or seriously harm any organisms on your hull - and I cannot think of any reason it will harm the AF, unlike acid which will convert some of the copper to 'something else' which is unlikely to be beneficial or it would be incorporated in the AF in the first place.

If you wanted to prolong the time before your next AF schedule - if it is permitted - once you have wiped down, washed with water, wiped with bleach water, wash again, preferably fresh, allow to dry and apply new AF to the high wear areas, leading edges and water line. Check anodes, and clean prop and sail drive (reapply AF, Velox, as necessary).

If you run out of time, fear not - just hang in there and wait for the tide to retreat, again.

That will keep you busy

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

I asked contacts at two anti-fouling paint companies. They both said that bleach was bad for the paint resin and would reduce effective life.

 

[Mark-1]

I asked contacts at two anti-fouling paint companies. They both said that bleach was bad for the paint resin and would reduce effective life.

That sounds useful information, thanks.

What is paint resin, what's it made of and how does bleach affect it? (I've googled with no joy.)

What specifically do they mean by 'effective life'? That it loses its weed killing power it it loses its adhesion to the hull?

 

[thinwater]

a. They are not going to tell you what is in the resin (binder). That is proprietary information.

b. Primarily, they said the release rate of the copper could be affected. But yes, adhesion is another concern.

 

[Mark-1]

a. They are not going to tell you what is in the resin (binder). That is proprietary information.

b. Primarily, they said the release rate of the copper could be affected. But yes, adhesion is another concern.

The release rate is effected?

Bleach dries leaving salt and that salt is washed off in three hours.

I could imagine the AF was damaged by scrubbing itself. ....and I could imagine the AF was damaged when it's scrubbed with Bleach, but if these guys are describing some weird ongoing change in the properties of the AF without explaining the mechanism involved them I strongly suspect they're having you on.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The release rate is effected?

Bleach dries leaving salt and that salt is washed off in three hours.

I could imagine the AF was damaged by scrubbing itself. ....and I could imagine the AF was damaged when it's scrubbed with Bleach, but if these guys are describing some weird ongoing change in the properties of the AF without explaining the mechanism involved them I strongly suspect they're having you on.

I strongly suspect they are not. They are under no obligation to make details of their paint chemistry public, they’ve spent millions developing it. They will know what common chemicals do to it. They want the AF to work for their customers, that is their best advice.

 

[Mark-1]

I strongly suspect they are not. They are under no obligation to make details of their paint chemistry public, they’ve spent millions developing it. They will know what common chemicals do to it. They want the AF to work for their customers, that is their best advice.

You could be right, and I could easily be wrong but AFAIK all AFs work in the same two (three?) ways so I doubt there's any mystery about how they all achieve that. It's paint not Formula 1! (I'm sure there will be exceptions.)

I'd also strongly question the whole idea of "antifoul working" unless you're posting from 1989, in which case fair enough.

 

[thinwater]

The release rate is effected?

Bleach dries leaving salt and that salt is washed off in three hours.

I could imagine the AF was damaged by scrubbing itself. ....and I could imagine the AF was damaged when it's scrubbed with Bleach, but if these guys are describing some weird ongoing change in the properties of the AF without explaining the mechanism involved them I strongly suspect they're having you on.

Bleach is very alkaline when dried, like alkaline pant strippers. It is not salt.

They did explain the mechanism.

If you are going to use very dilute bleach an rinse it off before it dries I doubt much would happen. I also doubt very seriously it will do any measurable good. If you are curious, bleach just one side.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Bleach is very alkaline when dried, like alkaline pant strippers. It is not salt.

They did explain the mechanism.

If you are going to use very dilute bleach an rinse it off before it dries I doubt much would happen. I also doubt very seriously it will do any measurable good. If you are curious, bleach just one side.

I think that bleach, even if rinsed off immediately, would slow the growth of fouling by destroying the biofilm (slime) that is the substrate for more obvious fouling. Just washing, even with a power washer, would leave enough traces of the biofilm for it to regenerate rapidly.

I would prefer bleach, or even better hydrogen peroxide, because other disinfectants leave residues (mainly phenols) that are slow to break down in the environment. Bleach rapidly breaks down to water and chlorine, and peroxide to water and oxygen.

We're probably looking at a shortish delay in the colonization process; perhaps a week or so, at a guess. It won't make a miraculous difference, but it might lengthen the interval between cleans.

 

[Mark-1]

Bleach is very alkaline when dried, like alkaline pant strippers. It is not salt.

They did explain the mechanism.

Bleach dries to Salt and I'm pretty sure AF can handle salt. (Unless I've misunderstood.)

Bleach itself is very alkaline.

So I'm certain dried Bleach doesn't hurt AF. Maybe in its wet state it does, but without more detail it's impossible to judge, or to understand how.