Abusive Broker Jeroen Korthuis Astra Mare Yachtbrokers

[SailorBill]

So if he tells a punter with a silly low offer to go away, he is wrong. But if he passes that same punters offer directly onto the seller for the seller to decide he isnt doing much for his money.

What do people expect a broker to do other than to advertise the boat? Serious question because I for one object strongly to brokers accompanying a viewing - I dont want someone hovering over my shoulder.

1) Be honest.

2) Ensure brokerage listings are accurate and up to date.

3) Treat every enquiry from a potential purchaser as a serious enquiry.

4) Respond in a timely manner to all email enquiries.

5) If a broker doesn't have the answer to a question, they should say so, and say they will contact the seller to get the answer.

6) Be honest.

7) Don't expect potential purchasers to drive hundreds of miles or jump on a plane to view a boat on the basis of vague information, dodgy camera phone pictures and poor responses to enquiries.

8) Pass all offers from potential purchasers on to the seller. Offer advice to the seller, but not a decision.

9) Liaise with buyer, seller, boat yard and surveyor in order to make the buying/selling process as pain free as possible for the buyer and seller.

10) Have in place a correctly set up client account with a bank letter confirming the account is held specifically for clients' money, cannot be used for any other purpose, and that any funds in the client account are held in trust. Make this letter available to purchasers without them having to ask for it.

11) Make regular contact with buyer, seller, boat yard, surveyor and any other interested parties throughout the buying/selling process. People should not have to chase the broker; the broker should be chasing them!

12) Deal with all necessary paperwork, including RCD certificates, proof of VAT status, marine mortgage, etc.

13) Ensure any outstanding liens are settled before the sale/purchase is completed.

14) Be honest.

15) Ensure the day of completion goes smoothly. This day should be a day of celebration for the purchaser, not a day of stress, worry, and having to chase the broker to find out what is happening!

16) Ensure the seller's funds are transferred the same day or at the latest by the next working day.

17) Be honest.

18) If there are any loose ends (due to circumstances beyond the broker's control, naturally), ensure they are dealt with as swiftly as possible.

19) Never make the mistake of judging a potential buyer or a potential seller. You will often be wrong but you will often not get to find out how wrong you were.

20) Be honest.

 

[@#$% boats]

An overdue end to the discussion.

Link to boat and amount of your offer please?

We can then have a look and make our own minds up regarding the reaction. You might be completely justified in a rant, maybe not...

Thanks.

I didnt post to gain your opinion on my offer. Or if I was in the wrong.
I was asking a question to which I expected maybe a few bits of information. Either I would hear "yeah that guy is a di@#" and I would happily move on knowing it isnt personal or maybe "that broker just broke up with his partner (insert other reason here)" And I would cut the guy some slack. I wasnt after uninformed opinions or sage musings that there is allways two sides to a story. There are allways two sides to a story. Sometimes the person stating his side is telling the truth. Maybe the broker was drunk. I didnt look at the time in Holland.
I was after actual facts to explain bad behavour.
What i got on this forum is a bunch of people posting exactly the opposite of the normal reaction just to feel wise and superior. Those people know who they are.
I tracked down and spoke to the owner.
The amount I offered was %10 below what the owner wants. Is that a fair amount? Would that insult anyone seriously looking to sell? As far as I am concerned it is a start point for negotiation.
I am walking away from the boat as this has left a bad taste in my mouth. I wont ask a seller to breach contract to buy a boat behind a brokers back, even if he has behaved badly.
I thought the forum would shed light on a bad situation. I was wrong. I have removed my original post. I am not going to reply to any further discusion.

 

[rotrax]

I was after actual facts to explain bad behavour.

In that case the only one who can help you is the abusive broker.....................Three years ago I called a broker about my dream boat, which was advertised for 20% less than others. On the brokers website it looked faultless. I asked what was wrong with it to be offered at the price. I was told nothing was wrong and that he had a highly motivated seller. I told him I was in love with the vessel but could only raise X and that was 15k less than the already low price. I was told that my price was derisory. I agreed and said that despite its derisoryness- is that a real word?- in the absence of any other offers it might do the trick. I had a call a week later and it was. We now own a stunning yacht which is everything we ever dreamed about, just because the owners circumstances at the start of this current reccesion meant he had to dispose of it quickly and for as much as it would realise in a short timeframe. If you dont ask you dont get.

 

[PCUK]

I wonder if %&*$% Boats final toys out of the pram reaction isn't a clue to where this all came from?

 

[Nicholas123]

Look I'm a broker and I can assure you it doesn't work like that at all.

Brokers are not just getting a commission for finding a buyer.

They are receiving a fee for producing the inventories probably over several visits, taking the photographs, buying and placing the advertising, telephoning and emailing people every day, driving to viewings, then organising the survey, contracts, legal transfer and finance. All that is unpaid until the sale completes and it takes hours and hours as the overhead merrily runs up on a daily basis. The broker wants to recoup those costs and time costs as soon as possible.

It would be the easiest thing in the world and far far better for his cashflow to sell the boats off quickly and cheaply, but that would be a total disservice to his clients. You really are very wrong.

The difference to the broker in his fee would be small, but the capital difference to his client would be very painful.

£100k boat on 5% fee.

Accept an £80k offer and the broker is only losing £1k but his client is losing £20K!!

These threads are really about people trying it on, to get boats well under their market value, and then complaining when they can't force the issue.

In the experience I mentioned the boat was obviously over valued in relation to the competition & I felt I had nothing to loose by making an offer which was just about everything I had.The broker was very reluctant to pass on the offer but eventually I prevailed.It was turned down but the owner reduced the asking price by over 10%.
I have since been offered a better boat at something less than half the price.I am not to gutted.(all this time the broker was making the claim that they constantly monitor market values).

 

[Nicholas123]

Three years ago I called a broker about my dream boat, which was advertised for 20% less than others. On the brokers website it looked faultless. I asked what was wrong with it to be offered at the price. I was told nothing was wrong and that he had a highly motivated seller. I told him I was in love with the vessel but could only raise X and that was 15k less than the already low price. I was told that my price was derisory. I agreed and said that despite its derisoryness- is that a real word?- in the absence of any other offers it might do the trick. I had a call a week later and it was. We now own a stunning yacht which is everything we ever dreamed about, just because the owners circumstances at the start of this current reccesion meant he had to dispose of it quickly and for as much as it would realise in a short timeframe. If you dont ask you dont get.

Precisely,you lucky so & so

 

[Nicholas123]

I wonder if %&*$% Boats final toys out of the pram reaction isn't a clue to where this all came from?

Did'nt seem like toys out the pram to me.In these forums there seems to be a tendency by contributors that if their advice & 'wisdom' is'nt immediately heeded & acknowledged they turn on the op.....just as you are doing.

 

[Elemental]

Did'nt seem like toys out the pram to me.In these forums there seems to be a tendency by contributors that if their advice & 'wisdom' is'nt immediately heeded & acknowledged they turn on the op.....just as you are doing.

+1

However, I don't think the OP did himself any favours by being confrontational and somewhat abusive of a broker in particular and of brokers in general. If he had posted calmly and gently along the lines of

I had an unusual/upsetting conv with a broker along the lines of ..... What does the forum make of it?

Then he may well have received the advice/support he was looking for.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Guess Jonic can give you some insight into the everyday life of a broker, which I suggest is just a bit more than an advertiser!

The question I was raising what what posters thought a broker should do given that many apparently think they dont do enough to warrant their charges yet others think they should just pass on offers.

Personally, I would hire a broker to sell my boat if I felt he could get a price which was more than I could get plus his commission. And sometimes they can because many punters are reluctant to deal direct. Have a pal who operates this way - advertises his boat privately and also via a broker at the private price plus the commission plus a bit. So far the broker has won out.

 

[@#$% boats]

Peter Casalis de Pury from Sunbird, good broker

Did'nt seem like toys out the pram to me.In these forums there seems to be a tendency by contributors that if their advice & 'wisdom' is'nt immediately heeded & acknowledged they turn on the op.....just as you are doing.

+1
Thanks for the benefit of the doubt.

Just to update everyone. I have new details.

The broker is a friend of the owners husband. That may go some way to explain his behavior. There have been quite a few low offers on the boat and the owner has so far refused them.
The other broker listing the boat has still been passing them on as he should.

Low offers are a normal part of selling anything. A broker that has a tantrum over a low offer is going to kill himself with ulcers. Being a friend of the seller is not an excuse for his behavior. And as I mentioned. My offer was not that far from being exactly what they want. If I paid exactly what a seller wants I would consider myself a mug. Buyers/sellers and brokers are often wrong in guaging the market. Getting emotional about a basic business deal is just crazy.

I have had a broker list my boat to help them sell another. I.e Here is a ferro boat for X or you can have this FG boat for just X more and that is a much better buy as nobody wants ferro. I actualy heard the broker saying this to a pottential buyer. I had not at that time listed the boat with him. I had just discussed the possibility.

I had a broker list that same boat 5 years later at twice its sale value. I told them I did not think the boat was worth that much but the broker insisted they would get it. I had that boat listed for a year with them as I was overseas. It cost me a fortune and they kept giving plenty of excuses. I believe they were using it the same way. I eventualy sold it myself and as the new engine I had fitted was wrecked by an idiot running the engine incorrectly, It cost me another new engine to sell it.

I have had a broker lie straight to my face about having a buyer waiting to look at the boat if I move it up to his marina 50nm away. I do not believe the buyer would not drive to the boat where it was.
That same broker was a co-broker on my first boat 20 years ago. He actualy told me off for offering too low through the other broker(which was accepted by the way) That broker is Nick Cox from Sunshine Coast Yacht Brokers.

I do not get aggree with Jonic "These threads are really about people trying it on, to get boats well under their market value, and then complaining when they can't force the issue."
Market value is whatever people will pay for it. If a boat is for sale for months then the price is too high. If they take a low offer then that is the market value of that boat at that time. Wether the broker likes it or not.
I did not complain about not forcing the issue. I asked about about a broker being unprofesional. I don't even know how you would force the issue. Please explain Jonic.
I am always polite and civil in my dealings. In my experience brokers are mostly dishonest. Not all of them I am sure. But if nine dogs bite you then you would not try to pat the tenth. I have found dishonest brokers both buying and selling. Seems to me that most brokers are looking after themselves first and second. They just keep smiling at everyone so buyers and sellers foolishly trust them. A wolf in sheeps clothing.
I am sure (insert broker name here) is completely trustworthy and I am glad you had a great experience with them.
I have never seen a broker do an inventory.
The other broker the boat is listed with is Peter Casalis de Pury from Sunbird Maramis. He has been totaly straight with me and as far as I am concerned he is one of the good ones.

I watched a friends boat sell for half what it cost to import it. Thats life. The owner needed the cash. He had refused several offers over a year. The market crashed around him and he kept holding out for an extra 5k on each offer and lost a fortune.

He would not have taken the final sale figure at the start but eventualy he had to and was gratful to get rid of it.

So I will not appologise for lowball offers. I do not set out to insult anyone. If brokers take offence at my offer then I suggest they choose another line of work.
The boat I offered on was a charter boat. It had made the wealthy owners a lot of money over the years in spite of its depreciation. It was not a home or a much loved boat. I do not have sympathy for the boat losing value over the years. I am purchasing a home to live on. Not an investment.

I am ALWAYS honest in my dealings. I do not mess people around, If I make an offer I mean it. I do my own survey and settle as fast as possible with cash. Is that out of line?

And I have bought a house in scotland. Yes the estate agent(lawyers) are hard to deal with but at least they are friendly about it. And the whiskey is worth it.

 

[SailorBill]

Just to update everyone. I have new details.

The broker is a friend of the owners husband. That may go some way to explain his behavior. There have been quite a few low offers on the boat and the owner has so far refused them.
The other broker listing the boat has still been passing them on as he should.

Low offers are a normal part of selling anything. A broker that has a tantrum over a low offer is going to kill himself with ulcers. Being a friend of the seller is not an excuse for his behavior. And as I mentioned. My offer was not that far from being exactly what they want. If I paid exactly what a seller wants I would consider myself a mug. Buyers/sellers and brokers are often wrong in guaging the market. Getting emotional about a basic business deal is just crazy.

I have had a broker list my boat to help them sell another. I.e Here is a ferro boat for X or you can have this FG boat for just X more and that is a much better buy as nobody wants ferro. I actualy heard the broker saying this to a pottential buyer. I had not at that time listed the boat with him. I had just discussed the possibility.

I had a broker list that same boat 5 years later at twice its sale value. I told them I did not think the boat was worth that much but the broker insisted they would get it. I had that boat listed for a year with them as I was overseas. It cost me a fortune and they kept giving plenty of excuses. I believe they were using it the same way. I eventualy sold it myself and as the new engine I had fitted was wrecked by an idiot running the engine incorrectly, It cost me another new engine to sell it.

I have had a broker lie straight to my face about having a buyer waiting to look at the boat if I move it up to his marina 50nm away. I do not believe the buyer would not drive to the boat where it was.
That same broker was a co-broker on my first boat 20 years ago. He actualy told me off for offering too low through the other broker(which was accepted by the way) That broker is Nick Cox from Sunshine Coast Yacht Brokers.

I do not get aggree with Jonic "These threads are really about people trying it on, to get boats well under their market value, and then complaining when they can't force the issue."
Market value is whatever people will pay for it. If a boat is for sale for months then the price is too high. If they take a low offer then that is the market value of that boat at that time. Wether the broker likes it or not.
I did not complain about not forcing the issue. I asked about about a broker being unprofesional. I don't even know how you would force the issue. Please explain Jonic.
I am always polite and civil in my dealings. In my experience brokers are mostly dishonest. Not all of them I am sure. But if nine dogs bite you then you would not try to pat the tenth. I have found dishonest brokers both buying and selling. Seems to me that most brokers are looking after themselves first and second. They just keep smiling at everyone so buyers and sellers foolishly trust them. A wolf in sheeps clothing.
I am sure (insert broker name here) is completely trustworthy and I am glad you had a great experience with them.
I have never seen a broker do an inventory.
The other broker the boat is listed with is Peter Casalis de Pury from Sunbird Maramis. He has been totaly straight with me and as far as I am concerned he is one of the good ones.

I watched a friends boat sell for half what it cost to import it. Thats life. The owner needed the cash. He had refused several offers over a year. The market crashed around him and he kept holding out for an extra 5k on each offer and lost a fortune.

He would not have taken the final sale figure at the start but eventualy he had to and was gratful to get rid of it.

So I will not appologise for lowball offers. I do not set out to insult anyone. If brokers take offence at my offer then I suggest they choose another line of work.
The boat I offered on was a charter boat. It had made the wealthy owners a lot of money over the years in spite of its depreciation. It was not a home or a much loved boat. I do not have sympathy for the boat losing value over the years. I am purchasing a home to live on. Not an investment.

I am ALWAYS honest in my dealings. I do not mess people around, If I make an offer I mean it. I do my own survey and settle as fast as possible with cash. Is that out of line?

And I have bought a house in scotland. Yes the estate agent(lawyers) are hard to deal with but at least they are friendly about it. And the whiskey is worth it.

+ 1

 

[Koeketiene]

Getting emotional about a basic business deal is just crazy.

You may very well think that, but owners can and sometimes do get emotional when it comes to selling a boat.

No reason why a broker should though.

Low offers are a normal part of selling anything.

Personally, when I was buying I viewed the boat considered the asking price and what we could afford and if I considered the boat was worth it.
I then submitted an offer - take it or leave it - never been turned down.

When I was selling (have always sold privately) and we got what I considered to be a ridiculously low offer, I told the punter to f*** off. End of the negotiations.
I was selling a boat, not looking to give her away.

 

[@#$% boats]

You may very well think that, but owners can and sometimes do get emotional when it comes to selling a boat.

No reason why a broker should though.



Personally, when I was buying I viewed the boat considered the asking price and what we could afford and if I considered the boat was worth it.
I then submitted an offer - take it or leave it - never been turned down.

When I was selling (have always sold privately) and we got what I considered to be a ridiculously low offer, I told the punter to f*** off. End of the negotiations.
I was selling a boat, not looking to give her away.

A: you have paid too much for every boat.

B: you make the world just a little nastier with your presence. Is F@#$ off really needed?

 

[Koeketiene]

A: you have paid too much for every boat.

Whatever you say Mr Businessman

B: you make the world just a little nastier with your presence. Is F@#$ off really needed?

And this coming from someone who's user name is @#$% boats??

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[xyachtdave]

A: you have paid too much for every boat.

B: you make the world just a little nastier with your presence. Is F@#$ off really needed?

If someone spent a weekend buggering around emptying all the lockers, test sailing and then offered him half of what it was advertised for.........+1 Guapa.

 

[Robin]

A: you have paid too much for every boat.

B: you make the world just a little nastier with your presence. Is F@#$ off really needed?

Well at least one broker thought so in your case and after reading through this lot and seeing the underlying unpleasant and prickly attitude I can sympathise.

I would not want to sell or buy a boat (or anything else for that matter) in such a way as to make the whole experience a battle from start to finish, because by doing so would sour what for me should be part of the overall joy of boat ownership. I have bought and sold many boats over many years, both privately and through brokers and actually made quite a few new friends in the process. For me the deal has to be equally acceptable to both parties and neither should walk away feeling bitter.

You may well consider the seller's asking price is way above market value, but that is just your opinion and the seller is entitled to hold a different one, rightly or wrongly. If that is the case walk away and find another seller, because if you really are right about the true value that should be easy enough.

 

[Stork_III]

A: you have paid too much for every boat.

B: you make the world just a little nastier with your presence. Is F@#$ off really needed?

Having read your posts in this thread, Ihave every sympathy with the broker.

 

[reginaldon]

Is F@#$ off really needed?
-----------------------------------------

Certainly not, I think I would merely treat it a bit of a joke!

 

[Coaster]

I must confess that I find the OP's posts rather unpleasant. However, to be fair, I wonder if there is a problem of language and culture?

Some of the OP's phraseology suggests he is not British. I gather that some British characteristics, such as queueing patiently and a sense of fair play, are viewed from abroad with bewilderment.

Perhaps we should regard the OP's contibutions with compassion.

Or maybe he's just an objectionable bugger.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Or maybe he's just an objectionable bugger.

In which case he'll fit in well round these parts