A very, very lucky girl indeed !!

[stav]

The importance of clipping on has been utterly diluted by LJ propaganda in recent years, and it's not a good thing in my view.

To me this is the key issue and agree whole heartidly with the above. The lady is very lucky/determined/strong swimmer what have you. But I feel That advertising campaign about lifejackets is mis-guided and appears, to me anyway, more about scare mongering and convincing the general public about how dangerous it is out there, therefore please donate to save these wreckless souls. Which is ok in itself if people wish to be suckered in but that type of bad press is going to end up with illconcieved legislation about wearing lifejackets with no consideration about lifelines etc. After all if you had a life line there would be less people to rescue I suppose.

Hope I don't need resucing during the next two weeks.....

 

[Adonnante]

Typical journos; they have no idea about what they are reporting on, so no clear explanation of what actually happened. But she was wearing a harness, life line & L/j. She was working on the sails & went thro the guardrails (quite likely if thrown off the coachroof & sliding sideways off as the boat rolls).

She then says she was held under "by the lifejacket & harness" so I am assuming that it would be an auto L/J and trying to get her to the surface & the only thing stopping it is likely to be the lifeline & harness still attached to the other side of the boat. This might also explain how the remaining crew failed to see her in the water (looking on the wrong side of the boat)

We are talking about a First 40.7 here, if the harness was attached to a jackstay or deck fitting it would need to be a very long line to reach under the hull to the opposite side.

So I'm sorry there are still quite a few guesses & assumptions - but without getting the poor girl on here for a "grilling" (and why would she want to cope with that on top of what she has just been thro!) I don't see how else we can try to understand what may have happened & consider ways to make it less likely in future.

We are talking about a First 40.7 here, if the harness was attached to a jackstay or deck fitting it would need to be a very long line to reach under the hull to the opposite side.

Our uninformed speculation will be of no value without a first hand account. A forum that skippers could report incidents to with a full description would enable any improvements in equipment and techniques could be discussed. Would this group of forums offer a suitable vehicle?

Peter.

 

[bbg]

Stav,
read Searush's post. Apparently she was clipped on, and the lifeline, coupled with the way she fell overboard, seems to have put her in danger.
I really want to ask everyone who says "clipping on is more important" these questions: when you are clipped on, could you still fall outside the lifelines? When you are clipped on, could you still end up in the water? If the answer to either question is "yes", IMHO clipping on might be a double-edged sword.

 

[chrishelen]

I work at sea and a little while back cos of HS rules deemed we must all wear LJ when on the upper deck,i never used to wear one before and not sure how usefull they would be if i fell into a choppy sea,not sure where i stand on this one.

 

[Searush]

We are talking about a First 40.7 here, if the harness was attached to a jackstay or deck fitting it would need to be a very long line to reach under the hull to the opposite side.

Our uninformed speculation will be of no value without a first hand account. A forum that skippers could report incidents to with a full description would enable any improvements in equipment and techniques could be discussed. Would this group of forums offer a suitable vehicle?

Peter.

Ooohh, there's that magic word "if" again. It might have been attached to the lifelines. Not good practice, but still a common one.

She went over from working on the sails. That means she is likely to be either ahead of the keel (working on jib at forestay) or behind the keel, possibly reefing the main at the boom. Either way she could go under the boat, past the centre line & be trapped under water as described. Seems quite a likely scenario to me.

But you're right it can only be speculation unless the poor lass comes on here to tell it as it was. And I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

 

[burgundyben]

I'm not going to comment on the what happened.

But I do know Prue well and I'm very glad she is ok.

 

[alan_d]

Are MIAB going to look at this incident? Over the last three years they have only reported on two incidents, a RIB with a serious structural defect and a powerboat racing accident. I was thinking of a more informal arrangement that could also include 'near misses'.

Peter.

If you mean the MAIB, they reported on 3 leisure craft incidents in 2008, 3 in 2009 and 1 (so far) in 2010. See HERE.

 

[lw395]

I'm not going to comment on the what happened.

But I do know Prue well and I'm very glad she is ok.

Yes, that's the main thing.
If there is anything that can be learned from the incident, I'd like to know, but there is a danger in trying to read too much into one incident, as things are rarely the same twice.

These things do make us speculate, because it's often a little close to home.
I would have thought heaving to immediately would be a reasonable response when someone is being dragged by a tether?

 

[lw395]

A bit of fat will help with both insulation and buoyancy.
As a youngster I used to float a lot better than when I lost a lot of weight in my thirties. Also never used to feel the cold.
Being fit will help you stay on the bloody boat though.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

There is also the problem of cold shock. Try jumping into water under 10 degrees and you will understand how difficult it is even to breathe. If you can float for a short period of time until the body has got used to the shock it is much easier to move.

With the best will in the world, is it possible that you're just not that capable in cold water??? I've swum in water at 5 degrees and regularly in temperatures nearer ten. Breathing initially is *not* a problem, and beginning to swim immediately is no problem whatsoever. Certainly remaining still initially is uncomfortable and to me undesirable. How often do you do it? Are you normally fit?



Until I see some external evidence, for me the jury's still out on academic question of 'does swimming keep you warm' issue. Take running. Most fit adults could run in shorts and t-shirt for an hour on a frosty night with no ill effects whatsoever. I'm not convinced it would be as easy to stand still in shorts and t-shirt for the same length of time. (Easy being a relative term!) People who get stuck on hills with broken ankles don't get hypothermia until they stop - I assume because until the walking itself keeps them warm. Different to swimming but the same principle of expending more energy to keep warm. It occurs to me the heat from exertion may be coming from muscle fat which I think may be a different source to the energy the body uses to warm the blood.



People swimming in arctic waters can manage 20 minutes at pace in speedos with no ill effects. Could they really survive in those temperatures for 20 minutes in the help position with no ill effects?



As I say, for the dumber members of YBW who might misunderstand, I'm not suggesting swimming like hell is a sea survival technique. I'm merely trying to understand how extreme swimmers can claim that stopping would lead to dead when intuitively you'd think the opposite - that they'd just be burning more energy.



I also think people are slightly overplaying the difficulty of swimming in the sea for two hours this time of year. There are a huge number of people of all ages who regularly swim two hours in the sea for fun. (People swim the channel, and they're not more thermally protected than you or I - probably less so 'cos they'll be packed with muscle rather than love handle material.) Plus she had oilies on which will have, to some extent, trapped a layer of warm water near the body.

Well worth going on a sea survival course.

Good idea. Let me know what you learn!

 

[Blue5]

So a LJ or line snagged and she had to take it off, this all needs to kept in perspective, it was a one in a --- chance it happened and it was an even bigger chance that she was found after 2 hours in the dark, the big fella was certainly watching over her.

Whatever the opinion on here, at night on deck it will always be life jacket and lifeline(s)

 

[Searush]

(snip)
But I do know Prue well and I'm very glad she is ok.

So am I, give her our bests wishes. It was lovely to see her say she just wanted to get back out there!

If she does tell you of any lessons she thinks we may benefit from, I would be grateful if you could post it. But, as I said earlier, the rough & tumble attitudes of the forum might not make it a good place for her to tell her story direct.

 

[Pye_End]

With the best will in the world, is it possible that you're just not that capable in cold water??? I've swum in water at 5 degrees and regularly in temperatures nearer ten. Breathing initially is *not* a problem, and beginning to swim immediately is no problem whatsoever. Certainly remaining still initially is uncomfortable and to me undesirable. How often do you do it? Are you normally fit?

I've swum in a swimming pool as a fit teenager at 13 degrees and was extremely glad to get out after two short lengths. I have come out of a canoe in temperatures less than 10 degrees at age 40+ and the the reaction on my body was as described. I am not unfit, or super fit. I short trawl of the web will give you all the information you want on the effects of cold shock.

What is the average age of a sailor?

Do you really reckon you could take your average over 40 for a one hour run, or an hour in below 10 degrees swimming? Some are fit at 40, but most couldn't run 100m without puffing and wheezing. What about the average 60 year old?

Different to swimming but the same principle of expending more energy to keep warm. .

Indeed totally different from swimming - heat loss is far higher in water.

Good idea. Let me know what you learn!

So you havn't then. Perhaps you should before making pithy comments.

 

[IanH]

On the basis of the picture on the Beeb website it would appear that a high BMI might have been a contributory factor to her survival.

Using similar logic to that often displayed on this forum - you don't need to bother with a lifejacket if you're a fat bastard.

A pithier way of saying what I was trying to convey in my earlier post.

 

[V1701]

I think that I see why she was able to survive the cold so well once she got over the initial cold shock. She is built rather like me and so, if I remember the tables that were in the diving manual correctly, likely to survive for quite a lot longer than a thin person.

Obviously I don't advocate over-eating as a sea survival technique or plan.

Well put. Fat is buoyant as well as keeping you warm, muscle is more dense and heavier than water. The worst body you could have in that situation would be tons of muscle and not an ounce of fat. In diving someone with a lot of body fat needs a lot of weight added to get down...

 

[Humblebee]

Interview with the yachting press?

It would certainly be interesting to read an interview with the lady if the interviewer was a sailor too. Is there not an opportunity here for YM or PBO to contact the lucky (and plucky) lady and see if she will grant an interview? It would put an end to speculation about the nature of the accident.

 

[Searush]

I'd have thought YW would pay her to write her story - great article there, even if ghost written (as long as the it is ghost written by a yachting journo!)

 

[footsoldier]

I've read this with interest. Last week I had a salutary experience which demonstrates the swings and roundabouts nature of all this.

I got thrown headfirst off the coachroof whilst reefing in a blow, first time it's ever happened in my life, thought I was as sure-footed as a mountain goat! Thankfully I was properly clipped on. I went headfirst clean through the guard-wires until I was brought to a halt by the life-line with my whole torso suspended outboard and the wave-tops slapping my head. The lifeline stopped me from going in the 'oggin but I found that my LJ was preventing me from recovering myself. The guard-wire was taught across my waist, jammed under the bottom of the LJ, effectively trapping me there. Due to the pressure of the harness/lifeline I couldn't move my arms enough to get any purchase and there was no way I could twist myself back inboard. Fortunately I was not alone on deck and after a suitable pause to get things under control I was hauled back in. I would not have been able to extricate myself unaided

Reflecting on earlier posts in the context of my predicament, I think that those who suggest that shouting or banging on the hull would attract attention are overly optimistic. In the racket of a good blow, I doubt that either, emanating from down by the waterline, would be noticed.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

What is the average age of a sailor? Do you really reckon you could take your average over 40 for a one hour run, or an hour in below 10 degrees swimming? Some are fit at 40, but most couldn't run 100m without puffing and wheezing. What about the average 60 year old?

It doesn't matter. You were busy telling me I didn't know about swimming. Not a 40 year old.

Indeed totally different from swimming - heat loss is far higher in water.

Agree.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

To me this is the key issue and agree whole heartidly with the above. I feel That advertising campaign about lifejackets is mis-guided and appears, to me anyway, more about scare mongering and convincing the general public about how dangerous it is out there, therefore please donate to save these wreckless souls. After all if you had a life line there would be less people to rescue I suppose.

I wondered if I was being a bit too cynical for having similar thoughts. Given the importance given to LJ's by the RNLI it seems curious that 1/2 inch diameter steel cable jack stays get fitted to Lifeboats. Possibly they want a few customers bobbing about in the water to go on the rescue numbers. Or maybe that is cynicism gone too far.