A very, very lucky girl indeed !!

[BrendanS]

When you swim in cold water, you stay in for 2+ hours swimming like mad then?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I must have missed the bit about other people being on board.

Someone must have raised the alarm.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

When you swim in cold water, you stay in for 2+ hours swimming like mad then?

Well why don't we try it?

We'll both go in in Feb. You assume the Help position, I'll swim. See who gives up first?

For the hard of thinking, I'm not for one second advocating hard swimming as a survival technique. However, I am wondering if 'real' extreme swimmers are living longer by swimming than they would if they assumed the Help position. I don't know the answer to that question, which is why I'm posing it.

 

[NorthUp]

I can see that logic, but when I swim in cold water, it seems far better to swim like hell - indeed swimming hard enough actually makes it comfortable. More telling, I've heard extreme cold water swimmers say "if I'd stopped swimming I'd have died in x minutes.".

Do extreme swimmers protect themselves from hypothermia with effort, whereas if they'd assumed the HELP position for the same period they'd be dead?

My gut feeling is this isn't as simple as it's made out to be.

Asking the question, not stating an opinion.

Extreme swimmers are pretty fit, and undoubtly being used to entering cold water is a massive advantage- I spent enough years diving in a wet suit to confirm that!

Probably you will be 'warmer' and active until you run out of 'fuel'?- I make no claims to be an expert either, just recalling various courses from years ago.

FWIW I wear a lifejacket when afloat and underway- most of the time...

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Probably you will be 'warmer' and active until you run out of 'fuel'?

That's my gut feeling. You don't get the warmth for free - you're burning more energy. ...but does it keep you alive longer in the short term.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Someone must have raised the alarm.

I suppose so.

 

[Searush]

Someone must have raised the alarm.

That's my next big question. How long before they noticed she was missing? If it was almost instant why weren't they able to keep her in sight or stay in the area searching? My guess is that she was alone on watch & the other(s?) was (were?) below so her loss wasn't spotted for some time. And that's the really chilling aspect of this. Hence the value of harnesses & lifelines over L/J's in my view.

Good call Major, bashing heck out of the hull is an excellent idea & far more likely to alert the off watch crew. One would immediately assume you had run into summat & be on deck in seconds. I will try to lock that in my memory banks - just in case!

 

[capnsensible]

What if the hull you want to bash on is doing 5 knots?

 

[Adonnante]

The BBC have recorded an interview with the sailor lost off Buccaneer, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-10680853 . It raises a number of questions, given she was wearing a harness and lifejacket and fell through the guardrails perhaps these safety aids and there use need looking at. It also raises the question of automatic lifejacket use and our clothing and equipment snagging, but how you can become snagged on the underside of a First 40.7 defeats me.

What a pity we have to rely on information gleaned from TV interviews to try to make our own sailing safer. Surely its time we had a system where accidents could be accurately reported and a more open forum to discuss improvements? Perhaps we are just not adult enough to discuss our errors.

Peter.

 

[Allan]

One point to make is that if you are wearing a lifejacket you have the option of taking it off in the water. No lifejacket, no option. I tend to wear a lifejacket when crewed, a harness and lifeline single handed. The lifejacket has a harness for rough weather or night sailing.
I met a French sailor who rigged a trailing line when sailing alone. Pulling on the rope disconnected his autohelm and gave him a way back to the boat, if he managed to reach it.
Allan

 

[Pye_End]

That's my gut feeling. You don't get the warmth for free - you're burning more energy. ...but does it keep you alive longer in the short term.

Swimming v's floating.

The aim for survival is to keep vital organs warm. This does not include muscle, or the 'feeling' of warmth.

If you swim around, depending on water temperature and how much insulation you have, you may lose temperature quicker than your body can generate it. Even if this does not happen at the start, it will happen sooner or later as you run out of energy.

The idea of floating, although possibly counter intuitive, is to keep the core warmer for longer. If you are exercising all the blood goes to the exptemeties as your muscle need the oxygen, providing a radiator for heat loss.

So the idea that short term might be better to wriggle around I cannot see as being possible from a temperature point of view. I suppose it may be comparable for a short time, but if you are likely to be there for longer, you will need your energy reserves for your core body heat.

There is also the problem of cold shock. Try jumping into water under 10 degrees and you will understand how difficult it is even to breathe. If you can float for a short period of time until the body has got used to the shock it is much easier to move.

Well worth going on a sea survival course.

 

[IanH]

I think that I see why she was able to survive the cold so well once she got over the initial cold shock. She is built rather like me and so, if I remember the tables that were in the diving manual correctly, likely to survive for quite a lot longer than a thin person.

Obviously I don't advocate over-eating as a sea survival technique or plan.

 

[Searush]

What if the hull you want to bash on is doing 5 knots?

The point was that the life jacket was snagged & one might be able to hang on for a while & knocking is probably more effective than shouting. You may need to re-read that section of the thread to see the context.

 

[Searush]

(snip)What a pity we have to rely on information gleaned from TV interviews to try to make our own sailing safer. Surely its time we had a system where accidents could be accurately reported and a more open forum to discuss improvements? Perhaps we are just not adult enough to discuss our errors.

Peter.

Thanks for the link, but wouldn't the MAIB offer the system you want? We are just pre-empting their discussion by a few months.

 

[Searush]

From the info in that interview, it looks like she went over & under the boat so that the harness & line was stopping her coming up on the far side, hence the need to shed the l/j & line. It also looks like the yacht was well crewed & as she was changing sails someone else is likely to have been on deck too.

Now the questions will be about how they failed to stay in the area or get a light/ lifebelt to her. I wonder if everyone was looking on the side she went in on when she ended up on the other side of the boat.

For me it confirms the findings of Dr Alain Bombard (and many others since) that determination to survive is the prime key to survival.

 

[capnsensible]

You are right, Searush, I reckon, do whatever you can to win through.

Wonder how often most people practice MOB, though? Obviously, I'm doing it twenty or more times a week, but it doesn't take much to keep yer hand in.

 

[Adonnante]

Thanks for the link, but wouldn't the MAIB offer the system you want? We are just pre-empting their discussion by a few months.

Are MIAB going to look at this incident? Over the last three years they have only reported on two incidents, a RIB with a serious structural defect and a powerboat racing accident. I was thinking of a more informal arrangement that could also include 'near misses'.

Peter.

 

[DannyB]

I recall many years ago hearing about someone who went overboard off the bow of a racing yacht, was run over by the yacht and found themselves pinned by water pressure against the leading edge of the keel. they were stuck there until the crew tacked round to go back and look for them.

 

[bbg]

From the info in that interview, it looks like she went over & under the boat so that the harness & line was stopping her coming up on the far side, hence the need to shed the l/j & line.

I can't see the interview, but this is interesting. Many people advocate clipping on instead of wearing a LJ. I agree that staying on board is important, but as most LJs come with an integral harness, isn't that the solution?
And - if Searush's report is correct - it highlights the need for the harness line to be so short as to prevent the possibility of going overboard. That means jackstays well inboard (mine are on the coachroof), and using only a short tether.
I do wear a LJ and clip on when conditions dictate. I have two tethers, one long, one short, and both can be released while under tension (if I had the wits to find the release). But it is virtually impossible to move around the boat with a tether that is short enough to be effective. If I have to go on deck I will use the long tether and add the short one when I arrive and have to work, then unclip that and move back with the long tether. And while I am moving, I am painfully aware that the long tether is inadequate and indeed potentially dangerous.
I wonder whether she would have been able to keep her lifejacket if she hadn't been clipped on.

 

[Searush]

Typical journos; they have no idea about what they are reporting on, so no clear explanation of what actually happened. But she was wearing a harness, life line & L/j. She was working on the sails & went thro the guardrails (quite likely if thrown off the coachroof & sliding sideways off as the boat rolls).

She then says she was held under "by the lifejacket & harness" so I am assuming that it would be an auto L/J and trying to get her to the surface & the only thing stopping it is likely to be the lifeline & harness still attached to the other side of the boat. This might also explain how the remaining crew failed to see her in the water (looking on the wrong side of the boat)

So I'm sorry there are still quite a few guesses & assumptions - but without getting the poor girl on here for a "grilling" (and why would she want to cope with that on top of what she has just been thro!) I don't see how else we can try to understand what may have happened & consider ways to make it less likely in future.