A Terrible Admission!

[Neraida]

Here goes..

How do you steer a "Plastic Fantastic"??

As some of you know, I have had some extensive experience of sailing, but the vast majority of it on big heavy wooden yachts with TM between 10 and 30 tons. They also all had long keels..

Now we have Neraida, whose gross disp. is 1500kg tops (not a clue on her TM). I'm convinced that my driving could be alot better. Our "iffy" results can't be all down to; our sails being abit old, a dirty bottom, not enough crew weight, the "wrong kind of waves", errrrr, and any other possible "not my fault" excuses.

On Sunday, we had a fabulous crew of a pair of French sailing students, who managed our sails beautifully in the conditions, but we still came in well behind where we "should" have done. SO ITS MY FAULT!! *WAIL*

I had the gps on "maximum" track and have downloaded it to the pc, and it makes depressing reading. One minute charging up wind at a good 8 to 8.5knots, then my course goes all erratic and we're down to 4.5!!

Any ideas? Is it purely down to concentration or am i over/under steering? I know its an impossible question to properly answer without watching me "doing it", but what I'm asking is if you have found yourself doing the same, and you've cured it..

Cheers gang.

PS I'm ok downwind.. 13.1knots!!! Whoohoo!!

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/postlist.pl?Cat=&Board=wanted>Stuff Wanted </A>

 

[sailorman]

Gentlemen dont sail to windward.
so keep going "down hill"
also if the wind is in the right direction the sun will be in your eyes
easy init

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Fin]

Could be anything, you've missed my normal excuses like weed on the keel, errant lobster pot and/or you can normally blame anything on the French.


On a very slighly more serious note IMHO for upwind speed with a fin keel go for speed first then pointing. Have a think about the cut of the sails, are they cut with a fine entry? If so then losing concentration to cut more lemon for the g+t will take you off the wind and kill the momentum of the boat (of which you haven't got much).

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[claymore]

Sounds like you are pinching if you are dropping such speed upwind - try sailing a bit freer?

<hr width=100% size=1>regards
Claymore
/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Jeremy_W]

With that sort of variation my guess (and without sailing with you it is a guess) is that you start off sailing fine. Then you take a look around and start trying to analyse the tactical situation. While you're doing that your boatspeed or bearing drops off until someone points this out and you re-focus on sailing but at the back of your mind you realise you don't have a plan for the next leg so your speed drops off... and so on round the loop.

To check this, try sailing an upwind course on a non-race day with no other yachts around you and no tactical considerations (apart obviously from tacking on headers) to worry you. Then run the same program on your GPS and see if the VMG variation is as high. If it is, then you have a technique problem. If it isn't you have a concentration (or more strictly a multi-tasking) problem.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[jonjo]

In race conditions to windward the mainsheet and kicker control man is the major source of steering control. You, the helm, should develop a fixation on the jib telltales and nudge the boat a few degrees up or down.

Someone on the rail should be alert to gusts and navigation threats.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[boatmike]

Think you have a problem my friend! Try a catamaran! I was brought up on Falmouth Oyster boats and Thames Barges. An Old Gaffer me in both experience and years. For the past year I have sailed a 37ft Prout Snowgoose. Can't blame anyone else for my cock ups as I even built the bloody thing myself! Thought I would NEVER get the hang of it at first. It does absolutely everything it says on the tin if you do it right but if you cock up it forgives nothing.....
So lets be honest. Sodding great big heavy long keeled boats with gaff rig are bloody marvelous. You can have rigging like a trawl net and sails like a horse blanket and they still plod on and look after the blokes wot sit in em who can look all superior and uppety when the tupperware brigade go by admiring their floating forest. If you dont trim your sails to every wind shift who cares? But in a tupperware boat with all that standing and running rigging, especially a fractional rig like yours you have to tune it properly, trim the sails correctly, point accurately and in short work your bleedin socks off to make it go......
But. And here is the consolation. When you get it right you fly like a bird. I have never had as much fun as I now have beating much larger monohulls going to windward. Especially when everybody who knows anything (or think they do) says cats don't go to windward....... But it's all about sail trim, rigging tune and paying attention to every little wind shift. If your sails are old and tired it won't help but it's not as important as if the skipper is!
Keep up the practice. The good news is it's probably you! It's pretty cheap to correct you. Don't change the boat till you are sure there is something wrong with it. (If it ain't broke don't mend it) Don't try going too hard on the wind. Free off on a broad reach and see how free you can sail before she needs sheeting in. DONT sheet in harder than you need to. (Most people sheet in too hard) Come up into wind gradually and only sheet in when the sail tells you you really have to. Nurse the little bugger. Soon you will be like me. I really don't know how I was satisfied all those years at 6 knots ....... And you have a real advantage over me. You have only got one hull! But then that's probably part of your problem!!!!!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[graham]

Older heavier boats would carry there way better if you pinched a bit too much now and again.Also lots of them would sail to windward with noone on the helm for long periods.

Modern light, beamy fin keels will stop very quickly if you lose your concentration .Generally most modern boats will do better sailed freer but faster as this not only increases speed but reduces the considerable leeway factor.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Jeremy_W]

A question

Do you sail with a GPS in sight of the helmsman set to VMG?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Neraida]

Re: A question

Fraid not, we only get the course about 5 mins before the start, and there is abit to much "chos" for one of us to punch all the marks into the gps. We'll try it this weekend provided we get some wind, I'll have time to set out a course etc...

I will check, but i think our little gps only really gives us VMG on the "navigate" function along with CTS


<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/postlist.pl?Cat=&Board=wanted>Stuff Wanted </A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Neraida on 23/02/2004 20:57 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[MainlySteam]

Assuming you have the problem when sailing hard on the wind then with an almost 2:1 variation in speed I would think it is pretty certain that you are pinching. While it is many years since I have raced boats and I am unfamiliar with the characteristics of your own I think it may be something like this:

For one reason or another you start pinching (distraction to tactics, as has been suggested, psychological urge to gain to windward, etc) and speed starts dropping. Either it takes you a long time to realise this (by long I mean in terms of seconds, not minutes) so you get a large reduction in speed, or else you realise it and bear off without retrimming the sails to suit the freer heading. In the latter case you end up with high sideways forces from the sails and already slow boat speed which will head your underwater appendages towards stalling with a consequent increase in drag. In any event, even if not close to stalling, at slow boat speeds and high sideways forces drag will increase.

The same management of sail trim and heading should occur during gusts as the wind direction changes during their passage.

So, if the above diagnosis is correct it is my view that you would need to make a determined effort not to pinch, and if you do find yourself pinching due to a helming issue or through being headed, make sure that when you bear off to correct the situation that you retrim appropriately.

I sympathise because years ago sailing singlehanded dinghies I was light weight and tended to pinch in order to manage the boat. Although that was many years ago I find it is a habit that I still carry with me even when sailing a high stability, fin keeled, spade ruddered cruising vessel to windward and I still have to make a determined effort to avoid falling back into the habit.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Jeremy_W]

Re: A question

I wasn't advocating it - It's one of the things that causes helmsmen to pinch because the VMG shoots up as they luff.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[john_morris_uk]

Re: A question

May I suggest that there are several things you might look for.

Firstly sails on such a boat are crucial. Shagged and saggy sails on a slack rig leads to no boat speed.

Secondly it should be possible to get a set of polar boat speed/wind strength/true wind angle charts for the boat. Once you have them, do what the professionals do and sail to the numbers. For instance your polar might tell you that if its 12 knots true the you should be making 6.2 knots at a TWA (True Wind Angel) of 43 degrees. Obviously you can't measure/sail to the TWA easily (you end up 'chasing the bubble' if you try) so in practice you sail hard on the wind and look at the boat speed. If you are going too fast pinch up a bit and trim accordingly and vice versa. In practice the best solution is a chart of wind speed/wind angle/boat speed taped to the bulkhead. If you can't get hold of any numbers start making notes. When its all going well, note down what your boat speed was at what wind strength/angle etc.

None of the above is any good without 100% concentration. Small lightweight plastic boats require amazing amounts of concentration to make them go fast all the time. Get someone else to navigate/trim. If you possibly can let the person steering do nothing except steer

Thirdly a significant problem with low displacement boats is being stopped by wave action. You need to develop a fine feel for when to luff up into a wave and when to bear away to gain power to drive through. Its very easy to lose loads of boat speed by sailing slightly to high for the wave and conditions you are in. Steal ground to windward without losing boat speed.

Finally, on such a hull, the main trimmer needs to be concentrating totally on the helm - just as much as you will be concentrating on the telltales. Ideally 5-8 degrees of weather helm. Never more than 10 is a good rule of thumb. He/she should be playing the main on the traveller almost as much as you are steering the boat. Hope this helps. Good luck!

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by john_morris_uk on 23/02/2004 21:56 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[bedouin]

With that speed range it sounds as if you've got the sails set with an unrealistically narrow groove. Great if you can keep it there, but if you can't you lose speed rapidly and have trouble accelerating again. May be worth letting the genny out an inch or so and giving it a slightly fuller entry. That should mean that small deviations in course won't have such a dramatic effect on your speed.

Also a good crew should be constantly trimming the sails as your course changes, you can trim the sails much more quickly than you can alter course.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Aeolus_IV]

I'm not a betting man, but I'd bet that you are pinching as most everyone else has pointed out. Its an easy habit to get into, but a difficult one to break (has taken me years).

As already suggested let the crew keep watch for other boats and talk you up the windward leg, you on the other hand get yourself into a position where you can see the head sail tell-tales and follow them religiously. I find that Aeolus goes best when heading slightly free of the point which the tell-tales tell me I should sail. As the waves get bigger and the opposition to going "up hill" gets stonger I find it pays the free the sails off a little and sail freer still - Aeolus will sail at nearly 30 deg off the wind, but I typically target 40 deg. Ultimately its all about maintaining boat speed and keeping leeway to a minimum.

Jeff.