A restoration project

[Porthandbuoy]

I'm about to embark on the restoration of a 2.5 ton Hillyard.
She's been on the hard now for approx 3 years and as a consequence is extremely dry. I was thinking of splining her seams and encapsulating her in epoxy during the rebuild (after replacing most, if not all, of her copper fastenings).

Opinions?

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[hillyarder]

i have a 9 tonner. she was out the water for three years when i bought her. all i did was rub her down and paint her and put her back in. she did not leak at all. is yours really bad enough to epoxy.

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[Porthandbuoy]

Bad? She need completely refastened as it looks as though galvanic action has 'dissolved' most of her fittings, including those holding the stem together. Most of her seams are gaping and the caulking is falling out. So yes, I would say she was pretty bad.
I was thinking that saturating her timbers in epoxy (moisture content well below 15%) would prevent rot and make her a stronger boat. Dry timber is quite a bit stronger than when soaked. And by fitting splines I would end up with what is in effect a monocoque hull.
There's quite a few websites out there selling epoxy who offer page after page of advice on the subject. I am looking for some rather less commercially interested opinion on the subject.

Still Thinkin'


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[Peterduck]

Keep thinkin', you can do a lot of good thinkin' for no outlay! If you are keen to epoxy coat the planking, are you prepared to remove each plank and individually coat it? If not, you could have one side [presumably the outside] of the plank trying to stay as it was, while the other side is free to expand or contract with the ambient humidity. This latter can, of course, vary widely. This could be a recipe for splitting of planks, which is not what you are trying to achieve. If it were my boat, I would be refastening [a huge enough job in itself], caulking lightly to allow for plank expansion, and relaunching. When the planking has stabilised again, after a couple of months, you could slip the boat again and gently firm up the caulking.
Epoxy coating is great for a stable substrate like plywood, or a strip-planked or cold moulded hull, but I feel that it is not appropriate for either a carvel or a mechanically-fastened clinker hull.
Peter.

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[JonA]

Many years ago I refitted a 2 1/2 ton Hillyard named Dinah. She had been sitting on a trailer on top of a hill near Yeovil and had dried out badly. Her pitch pine planks had opened up so you could keep an allround watch from below. I took her to S Devon where while I was burning off etc. our naturally moist, foggy winter atmosphere caused her to take up as tight as a drum. I should refasten and don't recaulk too tight.
Jonathan

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[Woodpile]

Hello Peter,

Does your theory apply to stuff like Coppercoat antifoul?

Cheers
Chris

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[Porthandbuoy]

Good Advice about expansion if only coating the outside. I'd considered that, and planned to coat the inside as well. Surely saturating in epoxy will stabilise the hull and prevent expansion & contraction due to summer sailing & winter lay-ups?
One question though (I'm sure I'll think of more). Why should all the fastenings have corroded? They were all copper nails & roves, though I think the stem fastenings were iron dumps. The external ballast keel is iron (keelbolts fairly new & of galvanised mild steel). Could it be a build up of copper oxide in the anti-fouling?



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[Peterduck]

Yes, Donny, it does. Coppercoat is fine on cold-moulded, strip planked and of course, That Other Stuff! All of which are dimensionally stable bases, unlike a carvel hull, which can swell and shrink to an alarming degree.
Peter.

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[Peterduck]

The business of corrosion of metals on boats is a real snakepit. One would normally expect the copper to be more noble that the iron keel, but I speculate that the sheer mass of the iron may have an effect here. If you replace copper with copper, it'll still last longer than you are going to need it.
Peter.

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[Mirelle]

Some comments

1. I would be very surprised indeed if the copper fastenings need replacing. The iron ones probably will, but copper is the most noble metal used in everyday boatbuilding and it is almost always OK. Pull a couple of nails and roves and have a look before setting out on a refastening which I really doubt will be needed. American boats which are commonly bronze screw fastened need refastening; English boats with copper nails and roves should not.

2. I would not expect to find Hillyards using iron fastenings where they should not. Iron bolts through stem and deadwoods and floors are definitely a possibility and if these are iron pull one or two for inspection and plan on replacing. New galvanised bolts are cheap. Ditto the keel bolts.

3. If indeed the hood ends are fastened with iron dumps (bronze dumps more usual) do not try to extract them unless the plank is pulling away. Just drive a bronze screw adjacent.

4. I strongly advise against your epoxy plan. The boat was quite strong enough when built, so why make such a radical and unproven change?

I advise you not to believe half of what the epoxy merchants write in their publications. The stuff does not adhere very well to wood, it certainly does not "saturate" it, and within just a few years the coating will start to fail locally. This is a recipe for localised rot, because moisture can now enter the timber at the point where coating failure has occurred, but it cannot escape again, since most of the member is still coated. Some years ago I built a dinghy using epoxy encapsulation and this is just what is starting to happen to it. That was a new boat; your chances of suceeding in encapsulating a bigger old conventionally built boat are about zero and you will probably just suceed in destroying her with accelerated rot.

5. As others have written, you will find that she takes up quite well when she returns to her normal moisture levels. Do not spline (fitting splines is a very difficult task, one which many professional boatbuilders fight shy of) and recaulk very cautiously - you may not need to at all.

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[Porthandbuoy]

Re: Some comments

I know copper nails are galvanically more noble than my iron keel. Problem is no-one's told my boat. The vast majority of the fastenings below the waterline are just so much green dust. As Mirelle recommends I will be refastening the hood ends and garboards with silicon-bronze screws (I won't be using ringnails in case I have to remove anything in the future!). The stem will be pulled back together with galv iron bolts. The keelbolts have already been replaced.

But back to epoxy! It was the manufacturers claims & lack of independent corroboration that prompted me to start this discussion.
Having steered me away from epoxies with tales of accelerated rot and stress cracked planking, what sort of caulking compound should I use? Traditional white/red-lead & linseed oil putty, one part polysulphide or two part polysulphide?



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[Mirelle]

Caulking

Cotton and linseed oil putty, with red lead worked in below the waterline and white lead above. I don't see any advantage in the (far more expensive) high tech stuff.

Every professional boatbuilder I know who has been in business for more than a decade tends to put a boat back together the way it was built in the first place, arguing that if it has lasted as long as it has, it was not far wrong to begin with.

To encourage you, my boat's underwater seams have never been re-caulked; the topsides were recaulked, largely by an amateur (me!) in 1985 and the stopping was raked and the cotton hardened down and restopped by a professional in 2002. So durability is not much of an issue!

Whatever happened to those copper nails? Most odd! Anyway, they are easy to renew.


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[Forbsie]

3 years on the hard sounds familiar. This project wouldn't be sitting on Eel Pie Island, would it? If not, there is a Hillyard there that may be available for spares, wood, etc. Also a lot of copper nails at reasonable prices if you need them.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/forbsie?&page=1>My Project</A>

 

[Mike2822425]

Did I realy hear you say "galvanised bolts" with all that caste keel it is no good to offer a bolt as sacraficial!! It will give you a leak when it breaks down. Rought Iron (but we cant get itis best) but next is mild steel, and hope!!

Just pulled 2 from my Folkboat (praise be they were 90% )so banged them back in.

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[Porthandbuoy]

Hmm. I thought galvanised meant mild steel dipped in molten zinc to ward off corrosion. Why should a cast iron keel be be a problem?
I've come to the conclusion that my boat's problems were due, in the main, to her being on a drying mooring. ie. too much oxygen, expansion & contraction of her timbers with frequent drying out and consequent erosion of her fastenings.
Many, many, thanks for all the advice and opinion offered. I will keep you all informed as her restoration (!) proceeds.
Her name by the way is 'Mariposa', which I believe is a town in the Yosemite National Park, U.S of A. Why? I've no idea.

Yours,
Mariposa

<hr width=100% size=1>"Mariposa"