A Man Who does not mince his words.

[lustyd]

........ your last excuse was that you were "locking"...

Wow you’re not even interested in a proper discussion, what’s your aim here? All you’re achieving is looking like an obtuse arse.

You claim “Lithium” will catch fire. I explain that the “lithium” used on leisure house banks is specifically LiFePo4 chemistry which has been shown as almost impossible to light on fire and to go out quickly even if you achieve that. Other lithium chemistries such as those used in mobile phones are dangerous but not used in house banks on boats.

Hopefully that’s sufficiently clear.

 

[flaming]

Some are hard to put out, others are extremely hard to set alight as shown repeatedly in publicly available testing

Well yes. But even the ones that are difficult to put out don't seem to go up so fast that you wouldn't expect to be able to escape on a life raft in the same way that people have escaped engine fires etc in the past.

 

[billskip]

Because you seem unable to grasp the simple concept that not all Lithium chemistries catch fire.

So you categorically state LiFeP04 do not catch fire?
If you don't mean that, what do you mean?

 

[lustyd]

So you categorically state LiFeP04 do not catch fire?
If you don't mean that, what do you mean?

It’s extremely hard to set them on fire, yes. They also don’t continue to burn unaided. Many, many tests both scientific and unscientific available to you. Youtube has videos of them being abused in all sorts of ways and in every instance they’re shown to be extremely safe. More so than any lead acid system.

 

[billskip]

It’s extremely hard to set them on fire, yes. They also don’t continue to burn unaided. Many, many tests both scientific and unscientific available to you. Youtube has videos of them being abused in all sorts of ways and in every instance they’re shown to be extremely safe. More so than any lead acid system.

But that isn't an answer, you say they don't, and now you say it's extremely difficult.
You are the one openly saying you are against miss information, yet you are giving miss information in your posts.
Getting back to the beginning....
There are some posters that have concern about LiFeP04 and they air their views, also it seems the insurance companies are showing concern..you are not helping those with concern.

 

[Tranona]

So boats don't change their batteries while at sea?what are the big generators, solar arrays, and alternators for?
If you are suggesting shore power supply is the risk.???

Not suggesting that at all, just that compared with shorepower charging it is much easier to avoid overcharging with the on board systems where the input is much lower.

It is suggested that the canal boat was being charged by shorepower which is logical for its usage pattern and of course if it is a lithium traction battery it will be massively bigger than the small house banks used on most yachts.

 

[billskip]

Wow you’re not even interested in a proper discussion,

I am but would prefer it to be consistent

You claim “Lithium” will catch fire.

Where have I claimed that, please quote post.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

It’s extremely hard to set them on fire, yes. They also don’t continue to burn unaided. Many, many tests both scientific and unscientific available to you. Youtube has videos of them being abused in all sorts of ways and in every instance they’re shown to be extremely safe. More so than any lead acid system.

The battery in the canal boat seemingly burned unaided and then reignited after submergence - so clearly your basic premise is not quite right.

Its not the difficulty of accidentally igniting that is the issue but the impossibility of extinguishing

 

[Marsali_1]

The battery in the canal boat seemingly burned unaided and then reignited after submergence - so clearly your basic premise is not quite right.

Its not the difficulty of accidentally igniting that is the issue but the impossibility of extinguishing

According to the initial findings of the Fire Service as reported here: Canal cordoned off and marina evacuated after boat explodes and burst into flames in Northants , “It’s believed batteries thought to be made up of lithium-ion (emphasis added) exploded, which then developed a fire within the boat." As noted elsewhere in this thread there is a big difference between Lithium ion and LiFePO4 chemistries. The former can experience thermal runaway while the latter doesn't. LiFePO4 batteries can burn if subjected to enough heat but so, too, can many materials that are considered non-combustible under normal temperatures and use.

Safety reports such as this: Marine transportation safety investigation report M22A0258 - Transportation Safety Board of Canada document the problems with extinguishing engine room fires on steel ships and Youtube is replete with videos of similar events in marinas full of GRP boats where even the prompt response of a fire service still cannot stop large scale damage and loss. This is from a fuel source that has been common place for more than 100 years.

 

[billskip]

It’s believed batteries thought to be made up of lithium-ion (emphasis added) exploded, which then developed a fire within the boat."

Better when the actual true description of the batteries is known, as the report says "thought to be made up of " is not clearly not LiFeP04, until the specification is published I am open minded.

 

[ducked]

All new technologies are welcomed as salvation by some and feared by others.

When radiation was discovered people were offered radiation cures for everything from ED to headaches andd gout then even after that abated strong xray machines were installed in every childs shoe shop. Heaven know how many cancers were caused till we go to grip with dosages and usage

Yeh, I can remember seeing the skeleton of my feet on that green spooky screen.
Even then I didn't much like it.
much scarier now I know.

 

[Marsali_1]

Better when the actual true description of the batteries is known, as the report says "thought to be made up of " is not clearly not LiFeP04, until the specification is published I am open minded.

Fair point. However the Fire Services do know the differences between the two lithium battery chemistries and are unlikely to specify lithium ion if it wasn't. Their investigations will have involved speaking with the boat owner/operator so that will, also, have informed their public statement If the quote had merely said, "It’s believed lithium batteries exploded, which then developed a fire within the boat." then there is room for questioning what type of lithium batteries they were. Bottom line is that it is more likely than not that the batteries were Li-ion based on what was reported to have happened and Li-ion is prone to thermal runaway under adverse conditions where LiFePO4 is not.

 

[Birdseye]

Check out YouTube
Electric narrow boat fire at Gayton Mariner follow up.
The Vlog Couple.
Interesting uncompromising view.
It is worth 10 minutes watch

Not really. Its one opinionated man making a general fuss about one minor fire. Boats do go up in smoke. I once saw a Prout catamaran that someone had been working on and which suffered a gas leak. It exploded to the point where the deck lifted off the hull. I saw a monohull catch fire because the engine shifted on its mounts in heavty weather and shorted out the main battery feed burning through the top of the lead acid batteries , sloshing battery acid about and setting fire to interior woodwork. I have seen lead acid batteries explode through over charging and consequent release of Hydrogen. Its simple - sh1t happens.

Equally impressive is the way that glass fibre burns and the poisonous fumes it gives off. Seen that a couple of times with boats.

I wouldnt put a Li Ion battery on my boat for propulsion because the energy density of diesel fuel is something like 10 times greater - range anxiety in other words. Do I have Li Ion battries on board? Of course I do just like that loudmouth - my phone, my vhf,my laptop

Not impressed by the fire brigade standing that far back and squirting generally in the direction of the boat. No doubt H&S rules. They are paid to take risks. Lithium battery fires can be put out with water but not by drowning them. Instead you need to cool the batteries themselves to counter the thermal runaway that releases oxygen from the battery constituents - ie col the batteryies. For that you need lots of water directly on to the batteries not someone standing a distance away.

Above all, posters on this subject needs a sense of proportion

 

[billskip]

Fair point. However the Fire Services do know the differences between the two lithium battery chemistries and are unlikely to specify lithium ion if it wasn't. Their investigations will have involved speaking with the boat owner/operator so that will, also, have informed their public statement If the quote had merely said, "It’s believed lithium batteries exploded, which then developed a fire within the boat." then there is room for questioning what type of lithium batteries they were. Bottom line is that it is more likely than not that the batteries were Li-ion based on what was reported to have happened and Li-ion is prone to thermal runaway under adverse conditions where LiFePO4 is not.

I appreciate what you say, but it's all to easy to second guess what is fact, by what is written...I'm sure you agree many use Google and then say " you shouldn't believe all that is by Google/ written on the internet...
My problem with this whole kerfuffle about LiFeP04 is that it has brought into question insurance.
The loose ends need tidying up.and definitive clarity as the specific type that are the cause of each problem, instead they lump them all together under "lithium"
Insurance companies/ are not saying that LiFeP04 are less safe, as I see it, and are not condemning them , but are just putting a clause in their policy.

 

[Daedelus]

For those who have got Lithium ion batteries I found an outfit who make fire extinguishers specifically for them.
They are at www.FireProtectionOnline.co.uk.
I have no connection to them apart from buying a few bits from them, since when they keep sending me brochures.

 

[Marsali_1]

My problem with this whole kerfuffle about LiFeP04 is that it has brought into question insurance.
The loose ends need tidying up.and definitive clarity as the specific type that are the cause of each problem, instead they lump them all together under "lithium"
Insurance companies/ are not saying that LiFeP04 are less safe, as I see it, and are not condemning them , but are just putting a clause in their policy.

That is definitely a niggle that will annoy many besides you. My suggestion is that people with insurance concerns vis a vis LiFePO4 being lumped in with Li-ion should contact their insurer with questions as to why that is happening. Dependable independent scientific research is available to support all that has been said on here about the differences between the two. Maybe the RYA and the like could intervene if they haven't so far.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

------

Not impressed by the fire brigade standing that far back and squirting generally in the direction of the boat. No doubt H&S rules. They are paid to take risks. Lithium battery fires can be put out with water but not by drowning them. Instead you need to cool the batteries themselves to counter the thermal runaway that releases oxygen from the battery constituents - ie col the batteryies. For that you need lots of water directly on to the batteries not someone standing a distance away.

The fire brigade stood well back as no point in risking there lives for a boat that was a goner. With a relatively unknown fire situation ie Lithium, they had a right to be wary. Their only desire was to prevent fire spreading to the oar and outboard shed or other boats. Perhaps greater water flow might have eased the flames - perhaps not. Firemen and firewomen have often died carrying out their duties and will go to the utmost if lives are at stake

 

[Tranona]

Better when the actual true description of the batteries is known, as the report says "thought to be made up of " is not clearly not LiFeP04, until the specification is published I am open minded.

Almost certainly LifePO4 which is commonly used by suppliers of electric propulsion and hybrid systems. Couple of examples here hybridmarineinternational.co.uk/hybrid-info/what-is-the-best-battery-for-a-hybrid-system/ and here oceanvolt.com/fully-electric/ 48v battery banks usually from 8kWh for a small sailing boat to 30kWh for a full size canal boat. actually many canal boats use FLA because they don't have the weight issue, but I can see why the tripper boat would use lithium for its fast charge acceptance rate for quick overnight charging. Somewhat surprised it does not seem to have any solar panels on its roof which is what most canal boats have these days.

 

[dunedin]

….." As noted elsewhere in this thread there is a big difference between Lithium ion and LiFePO4 chemistries. ….

That is factually incorrect. Some use these terms informally, but LiFePO4 is a type of lithium-ion.

 

[Marsali_1]

That is factually incorrect. Some use these terms informally, but LiFePO4 is a type of lithium-ion.

I suppose partially incorrect, if you want to be completely pedantic, in the sense that some very narrow interpretations of my comment might lead someone to think I was somehow saying that LiFePO4 chemistry did not involve ions of Li. However most common language uses of the terms (in battery descriptions by manufacturer/suppliers) use Li-ion or Lithium ion for the one type of lithium ion chemistry and LiFePO4 for the other, far safer, lithium ion chemistry. Regardless, they are quite different chemistries which behave in quite different ways so I'm not sure what is factually incorrect about my statement "...there is a big difference between Lithium ion and LiFePO4 chemistries...".