A little scare with lithium

[Poey50]

Are they really more dangerous ...?

Lithium Battery Fires and Superyachts: An Emerging Safety Issue - Wilsonhalligan

 

[Kelpie]

Are they really more dangerous. How often do you hear of someones phone catching fire? No doubt there is a case somewhere but the lack of multiple reports suggest that there is little risk. I did once try to get a LiFe battery to ignite both with a dead short and water immersion but failed miserably.

Interestingly I came across a boat whose engine had moved in heavy seas off Gijon in Spain with the sump flange cutting the main battery cable and causing a dead short . Luckily they were still able to switch off the main battery switch but not before the huge current flow had burnt all the insulation off the battery cables and burned through the top of two of the three batteries exposing plates and acid plus setting fire to woodwork. So the risk is not just a dead short of a lithium iron battery but also of the conventional lead acid. The key to the latter is a fuse in the main supply..

It does happen.
I only have anecdotal examples so no idea of how likely these fires are.
E.g. a building I used to visit for work was gutted by a fire a couple of years ago, started by a rechargeable torch left on charge.

Maybe the chemistry isn't the vital thing, it's more that cheap consumer grade electronics don't have robust design and safeguards.

 

[Poey50]

Maybe the chemistry isn't the vital thing, it's more that cheap consumer grade electronics don't have robust design and safeguards.

Yes, this. A very rare event in good quality batteries (most phones) unless damaged, but not so rare at the lower end of the market. A high-rise flat was recently gutted with fire in Bristol (fortunately contained thereafter). The cause was found to be a low grade Li battery on a motorised bicycle left on charge.

As said, charging imperfect batteries is the higher - although not the only - risk.

 

[gregcope]

I have moved to replacing the battery on my little boat with a pack of 12x 18650 cells and a charge controller. So 3 cells in series gives 11.7 volts with 4 sets in parallel . About 8 AH Gives enough power to run 25w radio and LED nav lights plus phone charge, for enough hours. (I have not actually run it down yet.) So small I just take it home for recharge. Charge controller something like this. 3S 20A Li-Ion Lithium Battery 18650 Charger BMS Protection 12.6V For Drill Motor | eBay Can be chareged from a 12v battery on charge (13.8v.)
Note however that this controller will not deliver enough current on discharge for 25w radio so Schotky diode used to bypass discharge for full current.
Note also there are some terrible 18650 cells available from China. Avoid Ultrafire.
For Oz people these are the best value 18650 I have found. Solar Magic 2200mAh Lithium Ion Rechargeable Batteries - 2 Pack

This sounds like an interesting use case. I like that you have made one. I assume its in a box that is easily ditch-able if you do get any thermal runaway issues, which is very unlikely but more probably than other chemistries.

I would wonder on a fixed install in a boat using this chemistry (Lithium-ion / aka LCO / LiCoO2) as this is more risky than LifePo4 or LTO.

 

[Kelpie]

EDIT

I can't seem to edit the original post and have an important correction to make.

Turns out the battery is *not* a genuine Ryobi. I had bought it secondhand along with the tool, and assumed it was genuine. There was a bit of tape on the casing, I've removed that and it says 'Vanon' underneath. A quick Google shows that these are pretty poor aftermarket batteries.

Funnily enough the circuit board inside had Ryobi written on it.

Is there a way that a moderator can edit my opening post? I don't wish to bring the good name of Ryobi in to disrepute!

 

[Poey50]

This sounds like an interesting use case. I like that you have made one. I assume its in a box that is easily ditch-able if you do get any thermal runaway issues, which is very unlikely but more probably than other chemistries.

I would wonder on a fixed install in a boat using this chemistry (Lithium-ion / aka LCO / LiCoO2) as this is more risky than LifePo4 or LTO.

Lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC) does carry a higher risk and, unlike LiFePO4, the batteries can go into thermal runaway. NMC is common in electric cars and there was a spate of fires in the US in cars that had been flooded after one of the hurricane disasters. It was so big a problem that drivers were prohibited from starting their cars in some States. The ignition would provide a short which could then ignite the batteries. Water ingress into the cells was the problem.

 

[Laser310]

The fatal dive boat fire was caused by a small lithium/charger fire that started near the companionway,

I thought that the cause of this fire remained undetermined.

I understand that a phone battery was suspected, but I didn't think there was ever any conclusive evidence.

 

[thinwater]

I think UK members my not be as familiar with this deadly fire. It the one I was referring to.

Dive boat fire caused by charging cell phones
more on fire
Wiki on the fire
USCG report
more

Yes, it was conclusive. This does NOT indite LiFePO4. Only sloppy cell phone charging practices and lack of secondary egress from sleeping areas.

 

[Juan Twothree]

Some people I know had their house gutted by a fire which was started by an e-bike left on charge overnight

 

[Laser310]

Some people I know had their house gutted by a fire which was started by an e-bike left on charge overnight

e-bike battery fires are increasingly common.

Is there such a thing as a fireproof vault that one can get for charging batteries?

I don't have an e-bike but i do have tools in my house with some pretty big batteries. The Ego line of electric tools have 56 Volt batteries, I have a few that I leave on charge in my garage. Probably not a good idea...

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I have a friend who nearly burned his house down with an aftermarket battery for his Makita tools. Same might well hold for the e-bike situation. It won’t be a genuine Bosch, it’ll be a less regulated battery for an ebay conversion or similar. Lithium batteries don’t worry me as such, but I do make damn sure to follow all manufacturers guidelines, and not get tempted to buy cheap copies.

 

[thinwater]

Supervised charging sounds so simple ... except we all (most of us, at least) know that is impractical. Folks want the phone all day. You want the phone/bike/drill ready for morning, and you are disinclined to check on it every hour, like laundry. Not happening. So there is risk.

 

[Laser310]

I have a friend who nearly burned his house down with an aftermarket battery for his Makita tools. Same might well hold for the e-bike situation. It won’t be a genuine Bosch, it’ll be a less regulated battery for an ebay conversion or similar. Lithium batteries don’t worry me as such, but I do make damn sure to follow all manufacturers guidelines, and not get tempted to buy cheap copies.

i think the issue with e-bikes is that many are branded with names nobody ever heard of

they are coming from china, or the far east, and nobody really stands behind them - i think nearly all of them are equivalent to your friends "aftermarket" battery.

they are really popular in urban areas, and high-rise apartment buildings likely have dozens of the batteries charging every night.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

i think the issue with e-bikes is that many are branded with names nobody ever heard of

they are coming from china, or the far east, and nobody really stands behind them - i think nearly all of them are equivalent to your friends "aftermarket" battery.

they are really popular in urban areas, and high-rise apartment buildings likely have dozens of the batteries charging every night.

I have a Cube e-bike, with a Bosch motor and battery. Of course the electric bits are made in China, but they do have the name, and are built to a proper spec. You can buy a conversion kit, unbranded, to fit to your bike. Not only are the batteries potentially unsafe, but the whole kit is outside uk and eu e bike regulations re power and speed. Same with e-scooters. It's like the wild west. People are already being injured and even killed.

 

[William_H]

I would suspect that the charger recharge speed is related to fire risk when charging. ie fast charge risky slow charge like 10 hrs not so risky.
Re my lithium battery for boat the box is so small that I bring it home for recharge. ol'will

 

[Refueler]

Crikey! that's awful. I have some of these, I will be opening them up now and checking their condition.
Those are almost certainly lithium ion 18650 cells exactly the same as in many lithium ion boat battery projects... ebikes... and all sorts. Not li pos.
However they are definitely a lot more dangerous when there are a lot more of them wired together, so the more mundane things are to some level made a bit safer by just not being very big. Concern about big packs is still justified. Imagine that short with 10 or 100 times the amps behind it and a higher voltage too.

18650 LiIon cells are NOT more dangerous than LiPo ... Definitely.

LiIon cells such as 18650 are constructed with hard cylindrical casing which makes them far more tolerant of physical handling. But penalises on weight.
LiPO are usually constructed of foil pouch banked into required cell count and then shrink-wrapped. They can easily suffer physical damage in handling - but reason for such reduced packaging is weight. LiPo are most often used in higher power demand use and the reduced weight is advantage.... such as models.

 

[scottie]

Yes, but the most recent aircraft fire with in an overhead bin, clearly not charging. We had a contractor job box burn up from a stored drill. I could go on and find many examples. Greater risk while charging, but not only risk. They can overheat if a failure allows rapid discharge, such as the OP's example.

Not "the sky is falling." Just throw the thing in the water. Just a smart storage warning. These things are going to be with us from now on, in increasing numbers, and not all will be well-manufactured, and some will have hidden mechanical damamge. Such is the life of devices and tools.

Whilst practical whilst afloat I am sure that you would not be encouraged in above mentioned aircraft!

 

[justanothersailboat]

18650 LiIon cells are NOT more dangerous than LiPo ... Definitely.

Didn't mean to suggest they were, sorry if my phrasing was confusing. The li po packs used in models definitely have other scary failure modes around physical damage. But they're not so common elsewhere are they?

 

[Refueler]

Didn't mean to suggest they were, sorry if my phrasing was confusing. The li po packs used in models definitely have other scary failure modes around physical damage. But they're not so common elsewhere are they?

LiPo are not commonly seen outside of high power demand use. A lot of people use term LiPo for batterys in various items - where in fact no manufacturer would be so daft to use.
The most common form most people have in their gear - is LiIon, and in hard case form.

LiPo 'scary failure modes' ???? The most common failure is when charging .... if it runs to overcharge - the cell(s) can overheat causing rupture and thermal runaway.
Next being too high a rate of discharge causing puffing up of a cell or the whole pack. This generally leads to increased Internal Resistance and any use after shows poor power delivery. Rarely leads to fire.
Failure to storage charge and allowing long term at full charge or letting it discharge below 'zero' level ... this causes chemical change and damage to cells.

At present I have a large range of LiPo and other Lithium based batterys. Been using them since first days they hit the Model scene. From Models I have evolved into converting many other items to use them.

 

[justanothersailboat]

I originally said "not li po" as part of saying the original poster's battery is definitely li ion and not li po.

A fun, scary li po failure mode:

... thank goodness it's a lot harder to do that to can cells.

I suppose all those youtubers with drone shots must have li po batteries on their boats, but I think I'll keep mine in an ammo tin in the shed at home.