A LEGAL DILEMMA???

[gjgm]

very well reasoned. There have been a few posts recently (guess its boat buying time) and there seem a few "incensed" types who seem to approach buying as doing the seller an enormous favour. Personally, if If I were selling and come across someone who wants it all his way, I'd be inclined to tell him to sod off, and happy hunting trying to find another boat at the price,location,condition etc that suits you. Truth is, while there may be many boats for sale, there arent alot of prime purchases that catch your eye. Well, not in my experiences anyway. Hence the recommended contracts where everyone knows the lie of the land. Sure, IF you can both agree a deviation, thats fine, but someone is always going to want it one way only.

 

[MAPSCA]

Thanks everyone for your replies and comments - to conclude - The Surveyor was fully professionally qualified and the part of the hull with the high readings (230) was supposedly a sealed and not accessible area of the hull. I didnt actually want to walk away as I liked the boat. I actually feel sorry for the seller as he has now got to sort the problem out. I have decided to pay for the de-winterisation on the proviso that no further associated costs will be met by myself.

Tigerregis:
aSuggested reading, JP Morgan. "If you have to ask, how much it costs, you can't afford It". You say first boat, make it your last or order up a supply of cheques.

Thanks for your input although I AM surprised by your reply - You're not the owner of the &$£% boat are you??? If so have the de-winterisation on me.

 

[jonic]

[ QUOTE ]
So the seller has got the engione "de-winterised" for free and will no doubt cgharge teh next prospective buyer foranother "de-winterisation".[ QUOTE ]


A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and I suspect you have none here. The boat was offered for sale out of commission, as others have said it may never have been going back in due to ill health. I have two boats where sadly both owners have died. Making accusations publicly like:

"will no doubt cgharge teh next prospective buyer foranother "de-winterisation"

unless based on (even flimsy) fact is out of order. (And Cliff I usually like your bear stomping angry posts so do not take this as being rude.)

[ QUOTE ]



If any seller presented his boat to me as a prospective buyer in such a condition I would walk away - there are so many boats for sale there is no shortage of choice - anyone who cannot be bothered to make their vessel "ready for sea" is not worth doing business with IMHO. [ QUOTE ]


The seller has a right to sell the boat how he wishes, there may be many reasons why he has it as it is. You have the right to buy whatever you like and offer whatever sum you think fit. You don't have the right to demand that costs be incurred for you and then walk away from the deal.

[ QUOTE ]


No mention of the value of the sale but paying 6~8% commission I would expect the broker to absorb the costs of presenting the boat in a "ready to go" state - a boat at say £100K the broker picks up £8K for what? a couple of hundred quid advertising?. (if even that)

[ QUOTE ]


/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

If it wasn't so funny it would be an insult.

Page in Yachting press £1000-£2000 per mag

Staff

Offices, heat , light, rates.

Cars, travel expenses.

Land lines, mobile phones.

Professional indemnity insurance

Web design and hosting

Subscription to YBW.com etc

Boat show fees

Yard and Marina fees

Cost of the doing all the legal work for both parties after a deal and survey are complete.

Stationery, postage, office equipment.

Own brand advertising.

"a couple of hundred quid advertising?. (if even that)"

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


I think the bottom line here is, the prospective purchaser offered to buy the boat, subject to his own choice of having a survey. Costs for that are down to him.

He didn't like the result so was able to walk away deposit returned. And not be the owner of a huge repair cost. (That £4-500 spent on survey just saved him £5-6 K)

Broker earns nothing, in fact is now in negative territory on this one and has a duff boat on his books.

Seller now has a big financial headache.

Believe me Mapsca, you are way ahead of the broker and the seller. (In fact by rights you should be returning the vessel to the condition you found her in, therefore paying to RE-winterise her too.)

Good luck with your hunt, an interesting post.

You were unfortunate to find one winterised, they are usually just left to corrode through the winter!

Out of interest did you have a contract during the process?

 

[pandos]

As a broker, do you think my point above is valid??

IE. Contract discharged.

 

[jonic]

[ QUOTE ]
As a broker, do you think my point above is valid??

IE. Contract discharged.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

What probably happened is the broker, returned the deposit before getting the bill from the yard/engineer who did the work. The work was still done at the request of the purchaser, and is now a debt against the vessel. I would be worried that the purchaser has run up any other bills against the vessel.

(unlikely, but I'm just trying to show the point is, its the purchaser who is commissioning work on a vessel he does not own, so the debts go straight to the vessel. Hence the need for a contract during the survey process.)

 

[duncan]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just trying to show the point is, its the purchaser who is commissioning work on a vessel he does not own, so the debts go straight to the vessel. Hence the need for a contract during the survey process

[/ QUOTE ]

agree your principles

agree your conclusion - even a shared understanding would have helped her let alone having it in a contract!

disagree the bit above in this specific case - the OP states that the vendor made arrangements. If the survayor had requested anything directly , or the purchaser, then I would be of the view that costs for such should be met.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
If the survayor had requested anything directly , or the purchaser, then I would be of the view that costs for such should be met.

[/ QUOTE ]I'd go ballistic if my broker or prospective purchaser's surveyor ordered work to be carried out on my yacht without my consent - maybe in writing, e.g. email. Surely the usual way for work to be carried out is for the owner to instruct the yard to carry it out...the yard will then look to the owner for payment.

I know that some brokers do call the yard direct and get involved (I have listened to them doing it in astonishment) but it isn't the proper way to do things. Even something simple like antifoul - would anyone want someone else to decide what type, what preparation and how many coats? NBL, IMO.

 

[duncan]

I agree - hence the use of the word requested and a lack of definition as to the adresse.

For example - if my survayor had requested from the broker handling the sale that the boat be put in (or taken out) I would expect any costs agreed by him to be my responsibility and therefore having been agreed with me just as the broker would be discussing and agreeing things with the vendor.

Are you having a bad week? You seem to be very touchy?

 

[cliff]

He, He - Trolling actually works...... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I did wonder if someone would "bite" /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
--------------------

"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>

 

[Anonymous]

Oh, sorry if it comes across that way. No, just dashing about doing half a dozen different things...a little more brief/abrupt than usual. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif see? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[jonic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm just trying to show the point is, its the purchaser who is commissioning work on a vessel he does not own, so the debts go straight to the vessel. Hence the need for a contract during the survey process

[/ QUOTE ]

agree your principles

agree your conclusion - even a shared understanding would have helped her let alone having it in a contract!

disagree the bit above in this specific case - the OP states that the vendor made arrangements. If the survayor had requested anything directly , or the purchaser, then I would be of the view that costs for such should be met.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I think we are agreed that a seller can present the boat how he wishes, and a buyer should pay any costs he runs up whilst trialing a boat he doesn't own.

The issue is did MAPSCA know or understand this?

So MAPSCA did you have a contract with these clauses in it after you made your offer? You paid a deposit so you must have had something. If so, and you didn't read it or query anything you didn't understand then there is no argument.

However if there really was no contract, morally as it was your cost you should still pay it, and put her back how you found her. But if there was no contract, and this is your first purchase and you do not know the process, then the Broker SHOULD have made you aware. It might do him good to swallow the cost so it reminds him to act a bit more professionally next time.

 

[jonic]

[ QUOTE ]
He, He - Trolling actually works...... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I did wonder if someone would "bite" /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
--------------------

"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>

[/ QUOTE ]


/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I soooooooooooooooooo nearly posted £@%$ off Cliff you're trolling! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[TimDaniel]

I've lost the will to live!

 

[smee]

You are liable for any cost brought about by your survey or sea trial request.
The owner and broker are not trying it on! They have every right to expect recompense in full for any costs brought about by making the vessel ready for sea trial or survey!

 

[1317]

Sorry to have offended some sensibilities. Enthusiasm creates a situation where standard caveats disappear, leaving the enthusiast to call for assistance from his ilk. Remember Oscar's epigram about cynics?