A fall in boat prices on horizon?

[Fr J Hackett]

If anything does inspire younger people to get into yachting it may well be the YouTube liveaboards. It’s very refreshing to see the hobby being presented in a new way, with not a pair of red trousers or a gilet in sight.

For every couple inspired by those there would be 10,000s that wouldn't be and hundreds that might give it a go and pack it in and 1or 2 that might make a success of it.

 

[Bernd1972]

Just like in real life. Life isn´t ment for cowards and dreamers. Either you do it or it will never happen. Applies to every generation. There are thousands of wannabe boat buyers who just keep waiting for the boat market to finally crash for years. Those will never buy. After all for them it´s never cheap enough, no matter what it costs, the want the upkeep and mainenance for the next years deducted from the price because it´ll cost their money and then they start with wanting to get it for free.
Life isn´t for cowards and life isn´t for free. But there are more and more people who don´t get that.

 

[dgadee]

There are free boats around. But you need elbow grease and time at the minimum.

 

[lustyd]

but within the last forty years will have done well out of the investment

Not in real terms though, that’s the problem! You can never sell up and cash in, and the equity while a large number isn’t actually worth a lot in a world where a couple of drinks now comes to £20 and a meal out starts at £30 a head.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

At todays rates I would be spending upwards of £10K a year and that didn't include fueler the car to drive either the 400 or 500 mile round trip or associated costs such as visitor berthing when using the boat so it could easily be a lot more. With young people moaning they can't afford a mortgage or the latest iPhone I doubt they would be up to swallowing those costs.

 

[doug748]

Not in real terms though, that’s the problem! You can never sell up and cash in, and the equity while a large number isn’t actually worth a lot in a world where a couple of drinks now comes to £20 and a meal out starts at £30 a head.

Well no, you can't have everything but you have the quiddity in the building and can take part or the whole of it to do something else, though as Bernd has pointed out you do need the pizazz to carry it off.

I found the turning point was when the mortgage finished, it could have funded a newer boat but I was content just to run what I had more comfortably and gear up for retirement.

.

 

[mrming]

At todays rates I would be spending upwards of £10K a year and that didn't include fueler the car to drive either the 400 or 500 mile round trip or associated costs such as visitor berthing when using the boat so it could easily be a lot more. With young people moaning they can't afford a mortgage or the latest iPhone I doubt they would be up to swallowing those costs.

We just need avocados and Starbucks to get a mention and then the whole thread can be moved to the Lounge.

 

[benjenbav]

Maybe young people don't appreciate the joys of owning your own boat, the annual maintenance and mooring fees, Easter antifouling and polishing. It takes a special type of idiot that finds pleasure in owning their own boat, I speak as one such idiot.

Maybe young people don't appreciate the joys of owning your own boat, the annual maintenance and mooring fees, Easter antifouling and polishing. It takes a special type of idiot that finds pleasure in owning their own boat, I speak as one such idiot.

Yes. I liked the whole ownership experience. Bills and all. Must be mad.

 

[Supertramp]

The certainty is that the cost of boating will keep rising, whether through repair and berthing costs or purchase. I suspect the current idea that boats last for ever will change as people grapple with or pay for the repair of the complex systems now expected on yachts. I still cling to the notion with house and car that I can fix it myself but not with the car anymore.

Modern society places less value on the "repair or make it yourself" culture which underpins a lot of older boat maintenance. A lease car, new build house and throwaway electronics culture are streets away from keeping old bangers running and fitting your own kitchen or plumbing.

Some of the younger generations will aspire to sail but they will find different ways to make it work for them. Anybody's guess what that does to boat prices. My guess would be a steady shift in demand further upmarket.

 

[Bernd1972]

I think key to beeing able to do lots of things yourself is a hands-on approach and not overcomplicating things with gadgets. For electrics for example that means source-brekaer-switch-consumer and done. No fancy bus systems on evrything. You don´t need to be able to switch the owners cabin light from the helm or flush the toilet from the aft deck. And your chart plotter is a chart plotter and no entertainment system. Else it all escalates.

Especially for boats being able to understand the whole stuff and being able to do an in-action-repair on things keeps the story enjoyable. Waiting for technicians to give you an appointment to even check what´s wrong is just annoying.

Some day overcomplicated boats will be cheaper than the old-school stuff because once neglected you are doomed...

 

[Concerto]

Are younger people wanting to learn to sail and possibly own a boat? Across from my berth are 3 sailing school boats. They are out sailing almost every week of the year. The usual age range is mid twenties to mid fifties. Chatting with some of them revealed a surprising number of them aspire to own their own boats, the rest are wanting qualifications to enable them to charter boats. So there should still be a number of potential buyers to enter the boating market.

Having spent manning the Westerly Owners Association stand everyday at the boat show for the past 3 shows, I can also say there were plenty of families with young children talking about buying a smaller older boat.

What will be the biggest factors affecting the boat market are:
Berthing costs, especially marina costs. Many marinas were built for smaller boats and there are limited berths for many larger boats.
People's expectations of the accomodation on a boat means many older smaller boats are no longer wanted.
There have been very few boats manufactured under 35ft over the past few decades which is now an entry level for most buyers wanting anything in the 30-35ft range.
The number of new boats being sold has been reducing over the past 3 decades.
Most boat manufacturers are building for the charter market, which are not based in the UK.
The massive cost of new boats makes recent secondhand boats very appealing.
Brexit has stopped all sales and purchases with the continent meaning the supply of available boats is now virtually static, only changed by scrapping older small boats and the limited number of new boats.

All of these factors affect the market for secondhand boats. Fortunately not everyone has the same financial situation. Those at the budget end of the market will force prices down. At the upper end of the market, prices will hold steady as new prices have increased substantially over the past decade and delivery delays make secondhand boats up to a decade desirable, so old keeping prices high or rising. The middle market will feel some pressure to reduce prices, but depends on how urgently a seller wishes to complete a sale. In every section of the market, boats that require work will have reduced selling prices compared to well maintained boats and take longer to sell.

One recent market that has been starting to build is taking an old boat and renovating it to modern standards. This applies to larger older boats as this is cheaper and delivery is faster than on some new boats.

 

[Tranona]

Not in real terms though, that’s the problem! You can never sell up and cash in, and the equity while a large number isn’t actually worth a lot in a world where a couple of drinks now comes to £20 and a meal out starts at £30 a head.

There is nothing new about this cost of living cycle as those of us who went through the 1970s and early 80s remember well. Exactly the same issues of pressures from high interest rates, job security, geopolitical crisis (remember the oil crises, 3 day week because of lack of power, miners strike, Jim Callaghan begging to the IMF and so on). The only thing that is different is the number of zeros on the ends of £ numbers involved. If beer is too expensive, stop buying it. Adjust to the financial environment you are in. Not easy and probably more difficult this time around because we have had over 30 years of massively increased standard of living and many people have no experience of the really tough years.

I appreciate that my generation - immediate post war will probably be the last to accumulate wealth from essentially nothing but our own efforts and favourable long term run of economic development - that is no inherited wealth, but its impact will carry on for many years as it gets cycled down through the generations.

 

[mrming]

Lots of good info and perspectives. In summary, it’s seems safe to say no fall in UK prices for larger good condition used boats in the foreseeable future, but fixer uppers have dropped and unlikely to go up again if (fingers crossed) we don’t have any more exceptional events like the pandemic.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

A run of poor British summers does have some effect too.

Last summer was a poor one on the East Coast despite some periods of very hot weather. I have plenty of opportunities for sailing but I was well down on mileage.

It's been noticeable in recent years that boats on moorings are getting less each year and even the odd marina berth is now becoming available. As mentioned, the right boats seem to be selling ok but the smaller and older stuff is definitely suffering.

 

[Tranona]

An illustration of how things have changed. I dug out a 2006 PBO and Opal Marine, the then Bavaria, Legend and Island Packet dealer had 2 pages with photos of 15 new or demonstrator boats in stock, 24 "nearly new" up to 5 years old and 42 brokerage listings varying from a McGregor 26 (remember them?) at £16k up to an Island Packet 380 at £185k. Spread across 6 locations.

 

[mrming]

An illustration of how things have changed. I dug out a 2006 PBO and Opal Marine, the then Bavaria, Legend and Island Packet dealer had 2 pages with photos of 15 new or demonstrator boats in stock, 24 "nearly new" up to 5 years old and 42 brokerage listings varying from a McGregor 26 (remember them?) at £16k up to an Island Packet 380 at £185k. Spread across 6 locations.

Interesting! Where were the 6 locations?

Edit: perhaps slightly cruelly, the Mac 26 is the butt of many jokes amongst our race crew.

 

[lustyd]

There is nothing new about this cost of living cycle as those of us who went through the 1970s and early 80s remember well

Typical answer from an older generation oblivious to current economic reality. There’s a world of difference and generationally we’re getting poorer as a nation and our direction is towards that of India or Nigeria with a distinct split between super wealthy and everyone else who will have essentially nothing. Have a watch of the channel I mentioned, we’re drifting towards some extremely bad times as a nation.

 

[westernman]

I have read about the transfer of wealth, too. But where are the younger sailors who are going to buy when they get the zloties? I remember in the 1980s that there were large numbers entered races all around Belfast Lough - of all ages - but those times have gone. There were also big yachts needing large crews. They all went a long time ago.

The situation seems to be plenty of dinghy sailors, but they give up when the leave school. They don't learn to cruise - time or no inclination? It can't be money because if you want to, there are plenty of really cheap boats you could get by with with a bit of elbow grease.

I think the difference is that todays youth are much less orientated towards owning anything compared to us when we were their age.

Also for them, buying an apartment is seen purely as a financial transaction. Exactly the same way as buying shares on the stock market. Not as buying a home.

My nephews live in rented accommodation. And own a couple of apartments elsewhere which they rent out. They don't own a car, but will hire one on rare occasions. They cycle, use public transport and occasionally Uber and similar.

I think this generation will not become yacht owners, but again will rent for a couple of weeks each year. Probably a different place each time.

 

[dgadee]

I think the difference is that todays youth are much less orientated towards owning anything compared to us when we were their age.

Also for them, buying an apartment is seen purely as a financial transaction. Exactly the same way as buying shares on the stock market. Not as buying a home.

My nephews live in rented accommodation. And own a couple of apartments elsewhere which they rent out. They don't own a car, but will hire one on rare occasions. They cycle, use public transport and occasionally Uber and similar.

I think this generation will not become yacht owners, but again will rent for a couple of weeks each year. Probably a different place each time.

Perhaps your nephews are using a quirk of the tax system. That may change.

 

[xyachtdave]

I think the difference is that todays youth are much less orientated towards owning anything compared to us when we were their age.

Also for them, buying an apartment is seen purely as a financial transaction. Exactly the same way as buying shares on the stock market. Not as buying a home.

Easier to get a bargain if you're not emotionally attached to something. I suspect more people will have buyers desire when it comes to houses and I expect boats too.

If you just want a boat there's lots out there, once you narrow down to a specific model you could be looking at 2 or 3 examples currently for sale in the UK, if the owners aren't desperate to sell or have had a lot of interest a bargain may be impossible to achieve.