A different EU v UK question on boat place

If you click on my link: Accueil - France-Visas

You'll then be presented with this page:

View attachment 159419
Click on the box "Do you need a visa?".

Input your details and it will tell you if you need a visa or not.

If you are an EU national then you won't need a visa for stays of under or over 90 days.

Brits will need a visa for stays over 90 days.

------------------------------------------

If we look closer at the web page that you linked to, it does contradict itself (Long-stay visa - France-Visas).

View attachment 159421
I would just ignore the bit in blue as it does not represent EU law.
Thank you petem, yes it does appear to contradict itself, which, this forum aside, perhaps understandable that people like me quote and believe things that are seemingly official. Although Jfm suggested that my post referencing personal situation in Spain was criticised, my post was really to demonstrate involvement and not googling, and I picked on France (and that site) to confirm my opinion.

I'll leave it at that and believe what I am told by the authorities.
 
Work through my Austrian example .Are you saying the Italians have no case ?Based on what btw .
This has now entangled tax btw .

edit Check out USA s day numbers to stay only as a tourist visitor ………save you the effort its er 90 .Wow what a coincidence !
But that does not constitute "internationally recognised". Just means it is a time scale commonly used for tourists who do not need a specific visa. In the UK it is normally 180 days - does that mean the UK is breaking some international rule?

Your problem seems to be that you want to place your one interpretation on things rather than just accepting what they are. Tax rules have nothing to do with EU freedom of movement rules, nor of Schengen rules.
 
You are missing the point and introducing all sorts of other anomalies..simple what I am saying, this is not about brexit , fom or anything to do with the UK you are fixated with.
Read my posts read my quotes and read what is written in the links....if what is written by the websites is wrong tell them .
It is not about whether the information on the websites is wrong or not - almost certainly if it is official like the French site the information is correct - but you have to read all of it not just one part. That is what I was was trying to illustrate by explaining that there are all sorts of rules in the area of people moving around the world (and particularly in the EU) and you need to identify the rules that apply to your particular circumstances. I was just giving examples of the common sources of rules and how they differ. Not fixated with Brexit (although this thread started about the implications of Brexit for the OP) but it created a whole new level of complexity particularly for UK citizens but also for EU citizens who are or have been resident in the UK. Not relevant here but the withdrawal agreement created a new set of rules specific to EU citizens in relation to the UK that are very different from those that apply to to UK citizens in the EU.

It can all be very baffling for individuals not familiar with the process and even those like me who have a background in the subject find all the changes and variations challenging.
 
It is not about whether the information on the websites is wrong or not - almost certainly if it is official like the French site the information is correct - but you have to read all of it not just one part. That is what I was was trying to illustrate by explaining that there are all sorts of rules in the area of people moving around the world (and particularly in the EU) and you need to identify the rules that apply to your particular circumstances. I was just giving examples of the common sources of rules and how they differ. Not fixated with Brexit (although this thread started about the implications of Brexit for the OP) but it created a whole new level of complexity particularly for UK citizens but also for EU citizens who are or have been resident in the UK. Not relevant here but the withdrawal agreement created a new set of rules specific to EU citizens in relation to the UK that are very different from those that apply to to UK citizens in the EU.

It can all be very baffling for individuals not familiar with the process and even those like me who have a background in the subject find all the changes and variations challenging.
Alto I appreciate you knowledge and information..I dont understand how you can possibly say a website (French in this case) is correct when it is clearly saying too different things that I would consider contracting itself . If saying in one place nationality does not exempt you, and then suggest it does.
I joined this thread because I am of the belief (because I have been advised may times by official people) that although FOM exists FOM does not entitle anybody to stay in a foreign country exceeding 90 days in 180. Now I understand your passion and all those that feel rattled about the situation, and I fully accept I could be wrong, but just being told I'm wrong on a forum such as this, and with utmost respect of all, inc petem, I cannot accept being told to ignore the other bit because it's wrong.
 
But that does not constitute "internationally recognised". Just means it is a time scale commonly used for tourists who do not need a specific visa. In the UK it is normally 180 days - does that mean the UK is breaking some international rule?

Your problem seems to be that you want to place your one interpretation on things rather than just accepting what they are. Tax rules have nothing to do with EU freedom of movement rules, nor of Schengen rules.
Just a turn of phase , never said “ rule “ . Your last sentence is oversimplification. There is a time component ( length of stay )to tax rules amongst many others . By saying that it’s a another “ me too “ again for oversimplification - apologies .See DAWs recent post .

The problem is i think most folks just can’t accept the EU to EU requirements to make your self known at 90 days and in for example Italy s case register with them when your 90 days are up . That’s officialdom in my book you are on there radar in there system now .
From a sail boat pov and Italy’s long coast it’s very easy for say a French man , Dutch or historically pre brexit even a Brit to exceed 90 days in Italian waters .But I have never seven a thread in the livaboards section “ how do you show them you have sufficient assets / means from my boat “ once your 90 days are up .Which is a requirement.
Bobbing about in a marina or worse still in a bay on the hook with dodgy internet , that must be technically more tricky than doing officialdom at home sat on your computer desk with a draw full of your financials ….even if the doc has a different name like visa or what ever .Pointless getting into a pissing contest arguing which officialdom is easier , more less onerous than the other or prattling about with semantics and attempted point s scoring to somehow make this 90 day thing disappear .I mean @ anchor - briefly = tender ashore , find a cop shop , mayors office open .Find out you need this, that or the other, get directed 20 miles away inland on a bank holiday etc etc .

I have seen plenty of “ just sail across for a day ( insert out of IT waters state ) “ to re zero . Most never bothered to register.
Most EU to EU still never bother today .There’s huge abuse always was .

Its not been helped by the ambiguity of the eu laws , the interpretation, and sketchy interpretation and of course internet forums full of get arounds giving / fanning encouragement to flout the 90 day thing .It’s also not helping folks on here politicising this 90 thing - not you btw .It’s always been there and the enforcement dial is only moving one way = UP .

My advice has always been consistent on this thread despite the criticism - think very carefully if you want to exceed 90 days in a EU state and seek embassy / consulate / the equivalent of local border force advise .
Dont assume because you hold a EU / Schengen PP you can stay Willy nilly and it’s ok not to phaff with officialdom.
Even anchored in an idyllic Italian bay .

Never seen on the live aboard forum ( forgive me if iam wrong )
Any sailor applying for registration with this . Have you ? i have reattached the link to save you going back to find .
https://sdg.interno.gov.it/en/d1-re...mporarily-or-permanently-another-member-state

Is it because EU think they have some freedom to travel Willy nilly for as long as they want without ever getting involved with officialdom?
 
Is it because EU think they have some freedom to travel Willy nilly for as long as they want without ever getting involved with officialdom?
But I think thay can travel will nilly, it's the stopping for a period in excess of 90 days that they are supposed to make themselves known.
 
Yes that what I meant .A lot don’t know or care about the 90 thing in one state .By the sounds of it a lot on here never knew either .
As Jane Austen might have put it, it’s a truth universally acknowledged that all countries like to know who is living there so that they can tax them, or from a different point of view, every taxpayer wants to know who’s living in their country so that they don’t have to subsidise them.

Death and taxes … 🤷‍♂️
 
As a property and boat owner in the Balearics our time spent enjoying both has been curtailed because of the 90/180 rule and the most frustrating aspect is that if an EU national visits the UK they can stay for an unbroken period of 180 days. Why we didn't negotiate the same deal for UK citizens visiting the EU is beyond understanding
 
Alto I appreciate you knowledge and information..I dont understand how you can possibly say a website (French in this case) is correct when it is clearly saying too different things that I would consider contracting itself . If saying in one place nationality does not exempt you, and then suggest it does.
I joined this thread because I am of the belief (because I have been advised may times by official people) that although FOM exists FOM does not entitle anybody to stay in a foreign country exceeding 90 days in 180. Now I understand your passion and all those that feel rattled about the situation, and I fully accept I could be wrong, but just being told I'm wrong on a forum such as this, and with utmost respect of all, inc petem, I cannot accept being told to ignore the other bit because it's wrong.
Are you in EU national?
 
As a property and boat owner in the Balearics our time spent enjoying both has been curtailed because of the 90/180 rule and the most frustrating aspect is that if an EU national visits the UK they can stay for an unbroken period of 180 days. Why we didn't negotiate the same deal for UK citizens visiting the EU is beyond understanding
That’s an interesting one
Just plucking this from the House of Lords library

The Government has explained that there is no specified maximum period which an individual can spend in the UK over a given period, such as six months in every twelve months, as long as each individual visit does not exceed the maximum for a single visit, normally six months.

It tends to imply (for me anyway) a single visit maximum so just come back next week for another 6 months

Can‘t be right but it does give an example of official confusion and badly written interpretation of policy

ref https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/uk-visa-and-immigration-policies-for-eu-and-eea-citizens/
 
Is anyone aware of any brits who have stayed in the eu over 90 days in 180 without getting a visa/official permission to do so since brexit? if so what consequences were there? Presume technically they would be classed as an illegal immigrant...
 
Are you in EU national?
No,( next year maybe) but I took up residence here before the cutoff, I have had to make so many enquiries through embassies due to the circumstances of myself and my ( Venezuelan) partner, as opposed to just doing the straight forward application.
 
It is not about whether the information on the websites is wrong or not - almost certainly if it is official like the French site the information is correct - but you have to read all of it not just one part. That is what I was was trying to illustrate by explaining that there are all sorts of rules in the area of people moving around the world (and particularly in the EU) and you need to identify the rules that apply to your particular circumstances. I was just giving examples of the common sources of rules and how they differ. Not fixated with Brexit (although this thread started about the implications of Brexit for the OP) but it created a whole new level of complexity particularly for UK citizens but also for EU citizens who are or have been resident in the UK. Not relevant here but the withdrawal agreement created a new set of rules specific to EU citizens in relation to the UK that are very different from those that apply to to UK citizens in the EU.

It can all be very baffling for individuals not familiar with the process and even those like me who have a background in the subject find all the changes and variations challenging.

I think you also have to take into account the way in which different nationalities express themselves in both their own language and in English translations, and also the approach typically adopted on official government websites. It's quite common in bureaucratic systems like the French one to be be told that there is an absolute rule, and then later in the document or page be provided with an extensive list of exceptions and special circumstances which mean that the rule doesn't apply. They never say "this applies unless ... ". As mentioned above, you have to get to the end and then look at the rules and the exceptions as a whole.
 
Is anyone aware of any brits who have stayed in the eu over 90 days in 180 without getting a visa/official permission to do so since brexit? if so what consequences were there? Presume technically they would be classed as an illegal immigrant...
There are a few here that are "questionable " and the biggest problem thay have so far is the driving licence.
There isnt afaik any searching going on for the "illegal brits" they just know sooner or later something will happen that will flush them out, like sickness or the necessity to return to the UK for some reason.
 
Yes that what I meant .A lot don’t know or care about the 90 thing in one state .By the sounds of it a lot on here never knew either .
OK, lets go back to basics.

FOM gives EU citizens the right to stay in other EU states for as long as they like (>90 days require proof that they have sufficient means and health insurance).

UK citizens no longer have the right to stay in other EU states for as long as they like (unless they apply for a visa).

Anyone who visits an EU country for more than 90 days has to register themselves.

Dictionary meanings:

"right" - a moral or legal entitlement to have or do something
"registration" - the act of recording a name or information on an official list

Can we agree on the above?
 
Is anyone aware of any brits who have stayed in the eu over 90 days in 180 without getting a visa/official permission to do so since brexit? if so what consequences were there? Presume technically they would be classed as an illegal immigrant...

I know of a few examples here in the South of France where people have been informally cautioned and warned about the consequences of future overstays. There doesn't seem to be any rigorous or systematic enforcement, and I've not heard of anyone actually being fined, deported or refused entry, but if you get caught it can be inconvenient and I guess could lead to further problems.

I do think too much is made of the difficulty and inconvenience of applying for a long-stay visa. I have a couple of UK friends with holiday homes in France who have gone through the process of applying for themselves and their family members. It can be slow and bureaucratic, but not particularly arduous. They were successful in obtaining 12-month long stay visas, which were then renewed without any issues.
 
The problem is i think most folks just can’t accept the EU to EU requirements to make your self known at 90 days and in for example Italy s case register with them when your 90 days are up . That’s officialdom in my book you are on there radar in there system now .


Is it because EU think they have some freedom to travel Willy nilly for as long as they want without ever getting involved with officialdom?
What makes you think that - and you have some sort of special understanding denied to others?

The issue is (as many of us keep trying to tell you) is that freedom of movement is a legal right and that the requirement for local registration is just a condition of exercising that right and is different from state to state. Failure to comply does not remove the basic right, but is a local "offence".

That is the right that UK citizens enjoyed pre Brexit along with the same conditions. We have now lost that right and it has been replaced by the Schengen rules which does say exactly what you can and cannot do when you visit the EU. The 90 days stay limit is unconnected with the Freedom of Movement 90 days and what happens after 90 days is completely different.

Neither of those sets of rules has anything to do with personal tax which is a state (not EU) competence and liability for tax varies from state to state as do the double taxation treaties between states
 
>90 days require proof that they have sufficient means and health insurance).
That's all I have been trying to say....they are supposed to "register their presence " and if they dont meet the criteria they have to leave...
 
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