A depressing couple of days at the Southampton Boat show

[capnsensible]

there seems to be an intriguing story here. Any more info on that one? Not the same guy with a seastream holed up in la Caruna 12 years ago by any chance?

Nah.

 

[capnsensible]

ok I'll answer the question. I have one if these.

Dufour 425 GL: solid, spacious & ocean capable - Yachting Monthly

Ordered it at the 2007 Southampton boatshow and took deliver in March 2008. In fact Duncan Kent came and did a review of the boat and took it out sailing in Torquay so my boat appeared in a copy of 2008 yachting monthly. He was talking about the construction and hand laid hull and the attention to the keel area. I didn't really appreciate what he was telling me at the time but I sure do now. Glassed and bonded hull liner as opposed to now how they just glued in with bonder. Check out the Hanse boat on youtube that had a rebuilt after hitting rocks . The hull thickness at the keel area is 10mm. When I drilled a hole for the water maker next to the keel it was 30mm thick grp. Now they are vacuum moulded and probably not of the same quality as Contest. When I bought it I listened to a diatribe of negativity from many on this forum site telling me how shit new boats are. Almost all of it unfounded and parrotting what they have heard or read . It was my first boat. I sailed it for much of the first year in Devon singlehanded a lot of the time. Without an autopilot. It would hold its course long enough to put a reef in. Eventually fitted one and did a few crossings to then 2 years later headed of to La Coruna where i was once again on my own. I seen the summer cruising the spanish rais don't to lisbon singlehanded. A friend joined me for the trip to the Algarve where I wintered. Over the years as a long term live aboard ( although I do spend few month back in the UK each year to see my kids). I have sailed it extensively in the Aegean where the meltemi tought me to sail. Sailed up the coast to Durrers in Albania in southerly winds with sustained 55 knots using a staysail because Sarande was untenable. When we arrived there were yachts with smashed stanchions and toe rails because Durrers too was untenable

I have anchored in Venice during storm cell with 50 knot winds on the leading edge. I have sailed in Greece when old farts on old 'ocean going' boats are filling up the pontoon with ropes (I know, there are no ropes on a boat) trying not to bounce off the concrete. I have been in some extreme conditions. On the shoulder season parts of the med can only be described as violent.

So the Dufour 425 has not let me down. With new sails new rigging, water maker, 600w solar power, Inverter, lithium batteries induction hob she carried me, my partner and two crew across the atlantic. Ocean capable? sure. Would I make a few changes yes. But change t for an old contest , moody, HR ? Not a hope in hell

We all arrived in the caribbean feeling we had something left in the tank. My first atlantic experience was delivering a 2007 Beneteau 40 leaving Barcelona mid February and arriving Antiqua in April. Everyone wanted to get off. even the owner. It rolled like a pig. Watch Ryan and Sophies experience because it mirrored ours. When I asked him why he bought the benny if he was planning on sailing to New Zealand his answer was it was what I could afford. it was his second round trip to the caribbean with the boat and was an in for him with the charter industry. Captain 0f 60ft gunboats an the like. Defiantly capable and experienced. So would he get an old HR or something instead. His answer was he would get the longest boat he could afford. I will second that.

I wonder if Ducan Kent will describe the new Dufour 470 as ocean capable. I very much doubt it.

So there is my resume and my experience can sniff out the bullshit. There is no need to carry 800l of water. Its probably going to get tepid and have ecoli in it.. best make your own.

Look I didn't start this thread do start a 'my boat is better than your boat' thing. Fin and spade versus Skeg and semi long keel rubbish. Personally I wouldn't want to push all that through the water. Probably needs half a gale to get the thing going and when its just about windy enough to push it along you seem them tied up taking all the space in the harbours . Try to get into those greek harbours after an exhilaration broad reach in a F7 is pointless. Best find somehwrer to drop the hook.


ok rant over

Generally, whatever boat I've arrived on in Antigua, my preference is to clear in at Jolly Harbour. Then go and drink to excess in the Dog Watch Tavern whilst catching up on the football. ?

Never been much interested in discussing hull type. ??

 

[Nom de plume]

Not worth entering into dialogue nortada when someone makes a throwaway comment without substantiation it. I have at least tried to give some reasoning behind my comments.

Perhaps you might like to re-read your early posts, 1, 9, 10, 20 etc. before claiming that you are 'entering into dialogue'.
"Shit steel ships" "poor bloody owners" "Have far (sic) have you sailed?? (To Geem!!).

Yes, I'd made my mind up on your early, sorry.

 

[nortada]

I think that most boat folks agree that all boats are a compromise.
The choice is therefore made not on which boats are 'In' but on eliminatinating those that are definitely 'out'.
I don't know why exactly, but for me, Dufours, especially Dufour 425 GL's, are most certainly 'out'.

Still looking forward to your response to my #30??

 

[Nom de plume]

Still looking forward to your response to my #30??

Well for teaching one of my family to sail this summer I bought an Elan 333 - it's fun but no blue water beast obviously.
I'm currently converting an ex Watson 45 lifeboat for next year's expedition to the Lofoton Isles via the Irish Sea and Orkneys thence down through Norway, Sweden and the Baltic into the European waterways.
Finally, I'm toying with the idea of a final trip across the pond for me and my old girl (below) to visit her smaller sisters from Ray Hunt designers (The Concordia yawls) - after that I'll look for a modern +/- 60' to replace her but I haven't found one yet.
What about yourself?

[url=https://postimg.cc/f3Jb0rFz][/URL]

 

[capnsensible]

Lovely yacht. Is that you on the side?

Furthest north I ever took a yacht was Bergen. No more numb plums for me!

However, sounds like you will have a great adventure. Good luck and I hope you find time to put a few words about it from time to time on the forum. ??

 

[nortada]

Well for teaching one of my family to sail this summer I bought an Elan 333 - it's fun but no blue water beast obviously.
I'm currently converting an ex Watson 45 lifeboat for next year's expedition to the Lofoton Isles via the Irish Sea and Orkneys thence down through Norway, Sweden and the Baltic into the European waterways.
Finally, I'm toying with the idea of a final trip across the pond for me and my old girl (below) to visit her smaller sisters from Ray Hunt designers (The Concorde yawls) - after that I'll look for a modern +/- 60' to replace her but I haven't found one yet.
What about yourself?

[url=https://postimg.cc/f3Jb0rFz][/URL]

Thank you, as so often in these forums your response doesn’t answer the original question in #30.

I do not intend to enter into a pissing contest on who has done what/where but to answer your question; we have a Freeman 33 in the UK and a Dufour 38 in Portugal. Hence my interest in your aversion to Dufours. Have you sailed one

 

[Nom de plume]

Lovely yacht. Is that you on the side?

Furthest north I ever took a yacht was Bergen. No more numb plums for me!

However, sounds like you will have a great adventure. Good luck and I hope you find time to put a few words about it from time to time on the forum. ??

If you mean the guy with his hands in his pockets then no, it's not me, but it is somebody you might recognise (an ex WEO, don't want to quote names)

 

[Nom de plume]

Thank you, as so often in these forums your response doesn’t answer the original question in #30.

I do not intend to enter into a pissing contest on who has done what/where but to answer your question; we have a Freeman 33 in the UK and a Dufour 38 in Portugal. Hence my interest in your aversion to Dufours.

I have absolutely no aversion to Dufours, nor have I ever stated such

 

[capnsensible]

If you mean the guy with his hands in his pockets then no, it's not me, but it is somebody you might recognise (an ex WEO, don't want to quote names)

On my iPad, the photo has vanished. ?

 

[Sailfree]

43 jeanneau was on my list back in 2007. nice boat. not so nice now

Bought ours new in 2005. Ours was in last batch made.

Never realised until we ordered it that jeanneau built boats only in batch numbers that are most economical. IIRC it was a odd number like 9 for the 43'. I guess its something to do with lazer cutting the sheets of marine ply to minimise waste.

Would comment on Dufours. Our 1st big boat after racing dinghies was a 36' classic (1998). We put it out to charter with Hamble School of Yachting. After using it ourself we often saw it go out on Sunday night in a F7 for a mile building YM course! It was worked hard.
Exchanged it at 2001 for a Dufour 38' classic. We put this boat with Hamble Yacht Charters where it had an easier life.

Both Dufours were maintained well and stood up to the increased use a charter boat has.

We sailed the 38' Dufour to Spain on our 3 month honeymoon in 2004 and I ended up sailing back on my own! But thats another story (wifes daughter in hospital).

 

[Wansworth]

What struck me when we became based here (an international stopping off point for many long distance liveaboards) was that many of the boats are much older and on age and "style" alone would be discounted by the majority of UK marina dwelling wannabees as not modern or fast enough. Quite often the beaten up old steel boat has been there and done it - several times.

There speaks the voice of experience?

 

[nortada]

I have absolutely no aversion to Dufours, nor have I ever stated such

Your #28

 

[Nom de plume]

Your #28

It wasn't a criticism of the boat.

 

[daveg45]

I do agree with you,the new boats are about what they can sell for best profit to sit on a pontoon with a g'n't.

Now I would be looking at a motorsailer OK they don't sail or motor very well but I think the Cheoy Lee 53,63 or even the 78
Are good sturdy boat that your woman will like.

When all this new stuff gets older they won't have the demand for a good price like the old Gibsea's and Dufour

Ah yes the Cheoy Lee looks a proper little ship. Just seen one on the market for around 500k which has had a £180k refit. I guess that gives some indication of the running costs though

A lot of opinionated nonsense in this thread...

par for the course with this forum site to be fair.

 

[Graham376]

It wasn't a criticism of the boat.

That's the problem with many threads, someone says they don't like something and others who have one take it as an insult because you seem to question their choice, which isn't the case.

 

[billskip]

Ah yes the Cheoy Lee looks a proper little ship. Just seen one on the market for around 500k which has had a £180k refit. I guess that gives some indication of the running costs though

Well it is about 35 years old, and you know what these agents marketing habits are,to deny all that is said should it be contradicted ?

 

[tsekul]

Maybe an operation to have his legs shorter would be a good idea.....

Would definitely be cheaper

 

[daveg45]

Bought ours new in 2005. Ours was in last batch made.

Never realised until we ordered it that jeanneau built boats only in batch numbers that are most economical. IIRC it was a odd number like 9 for the 43'. I guess its something to do with lazer cutting the sheets of marine ply to minimise waste.

Would comment on Dufours. Our 1st big boat after racing dinghies was a 36' classic (1998). We put it out to charter with Hamble School of Yachting. After using it ourself we often saw it go out on Sunday night in a F7 for a mile building YM course! It was worked hard.
Exchanged it at 2001 for a Dufour 38' classic. We put this boat with Hamble Yacht Charters where it had an easier life.

Both Dufours were maintained well and stood up to the increased use a charter boat has.

We sailed the 38' Dufour to Spain on our 3 month honeymoon in 2004 and I ended up sailing back on my own! But thats another story (wifes daughter in hospital).

Nice story and thanks for sharing. A guy in the marina while I was berthed in the uk had Vic a classic and it looked and felt like a strong well made boat.

Perhaps you might like to re-read your early posts, 1, 9, 10, 20 etc. before claiming that you are 'entering into dialogue'.
"Shit steel ships" "poor bloody owners" "Have far (sic) have you sailed?? (To Geem!!).

Yes, I'd made my mind up on your early, sorry.

Well for us if the engine fails we sail. We don't use the engine for charging. We have tonnes of solar, a a Duogen, diesel genset, spare Autopilot, two fridges, Windpilot if we don't want to use Lecky autopilot. Watermaker is super simple no electronic 200l/h unit. We have a spare HP pump.
We also have an 800litre water tank that will easily get us across the pond without using the watermaker. I think I have it covered?

sounds like you have plenty of redundancy which is great. Similarly I have plenty of solar with capacity for more. Like you the engine for a back up and not ideal but doable a Honda genset. However I found sailing west with headsail and stay sail goose winged the sails blocked the solar panels in the afternoon. On top of that we had a lot of cloudy days. Sailing with a round parachute was easier on the rig, quite and didn't shade the solar. I didn’t have a back up autopilot so took more crew but it is something I am looking at. Is your spare auto helm permanently fitted or in a locker waiting for if you need it? I have a problem in so far as the raymarine st6000 is obsolete so interfacing a new autopilot is not simply plug and play unless just the linear drive unit fails. I was also concerned with overheating the stock 115 amp alternator while the lithium batteries absorbed all the amps they could get. Not sure what temps they can run at but when both B2B 's were on and pulling 90 amps temps quickly climbed to around 100 C. The autopilot with the sensitivity and gyro switched off was pretty efficient at around 1 amp. I only make 30 lites of water but only draw 9 amps to do it. We ran it every 3 days regardless just to keep it going.

 

[geem]

I have been thinking ?. Maybe the French yards have realised that blokes don't buy boats they just pay for them. And if the ladies head is turned by a fusion sound system (all be it entry level) draw fridge freezers and bbq's in the cockpit and a cooler for the wine and accommodation that resembles an apartment (which to be fair is probably what they really want) they are onto a winner. Also maybe they can see the change in sailing style. Gone are the days where you can retire on an index linked final salary with cash bonus with early retirement like all those Dutch people in their 2006 ish Bavaria’s. As people are looking at 67 years before retirement. Chances are they are never crossing oceans on boats. With limited holidays much better to stick a pin in the map of your next sailing destination and go and charter one. Stiff competition there. People want the best bling palace for their money. So why build a boat for a purpose it will never get used for? Those who will be able to retire early enough to take off will be well healed enough and have the mindset that a million pound boat with its £100k annual running costs is more than doable. Plenty of young coupe with young kids sailing the world probably on bank of mum and dad and their weapon of choice is a catamaran. I suspect a lot of those old traditional blue water boats will struggle to find a new owner in a few years. This could lead me to another thread. How much of person wealth should be spent on a toy. Weather you live on it or not? I’ll kick off with 10% so I could chop the Dufour in for something different and add another couple off hundred k but the cost benefit ratio just doesn’t seem to be there. I am aware of the limitations of the Dufour 425. But many have crossed the Atlantic and if you can do that then no reason it can’t handle the pacific.

We extreme weather getting more frequent due to global warming the risk of getting caught out in something pretty nasty may be our future.
Maybe just wishful thinking but just maybe proper Bluewater boats will still be desirable for those that know the vertues of such a craft.

Nice story and thanks for sharing. A guy in the marina while I was berthed in the uk had Vic a classic and it looked and felt like a strong well made boat.





sounds like you have plenty of redundancy which is great. Similarly I have plenty of solar with capacity for more. Like you the engine for a back up and not ideal but doable a Honda genset. However I found sailing west with headsail and stay sail goose winged the sails blocked the solar panels in the afternoon. On top of that we had a lot of cloudy days. Sailing with a round parachute was easier on the rig, quite and didn't shade the solar. I didn’t have a back up autopilot so took more crew but it is something I am looking at. Is your spare auto helm permanently fitted or in a locker waiting for if you need it? I have a problem in so far as the raymarine st6000 is obsolete so interfacing a new autopilot is not simply plug and play unless just the linear drive unit fails. I was also concerned with overheating the stock 115 amp alternator while the lithium batteries absorbed all the amps they could get. Not sure what temps they can run at but when both B2B 's were on and pulling 90 amps temps quickly climbed to around 100 C. The autopilot with the sensitivity and gyro switched off was pretty efficient at around 1 amp. I only make 30 lites of water but only draw 9 amps to do it. We ran it every 3 days regardless just to keep it going.

We never run the engine to charge. The Duogen will run the boat at night. During the day Duogen and solar charge the batteries regardless of cloudy days. The autopilot is a complete spare in a locker. We often use the Windpilot simply because it steers well and it's there. Power simply is not a problem on our boat. The watermaker runs off the diesel generator. 200 l/hr. We only have to run it for a couple of hours on an Atlantic crossing if we want a shower each night. 800l water tank helps.
It sounds like you need a lot more solar and some additional charging solutions. Your problems aren't mine. We don't take crew either.
Husband and wife crew is plenty.
Why is the St6000 obsolete? There are plenty of drives that just need two wire connection plus clutch activation pair. You don't need to stay with Raymarine for the drive