A chat with e-borders at the boat show

[prv]

It will soon, in the UK, be illegal to walk up to your boat, untie, and go wherever your fancy takes you.

The inexpressibly sad, depressing, frightening thing is that in the last year I have had more than one non-sailing friend ask if I'm "allowed" to just set off and sail where I like, in one case specifically from Southampton to the Isle of Wight. Asked in terms suggesting they reasonably think I might not be.

Pete

 

[dk]

I have made the following observations during my lifetime!

1. Most new government rules (laws) never solve the problem that they originally set out to solve.
2. Given new laws yer average civil servant in a uniform and peaked cap will undoubtably abuse the authority given to him/her.
3. I will always be in the wrong and,
4. Will end up paying some kinda fine and run the risk of having a "criminal" record to boot.


Am I wrong in my assumptions?

Peter.

And 5. You will have your DNA taken and be permanently part of yet another government data collection system.

Note - Americans in one state have forced a new speed camera regime to be scrapped by simply tearing up their tickets and refusing to co-operate! People Power I think they used to call it!

 

[doris]

As I struggled through this whole thread I nicked a few bits and sent the following to my MP Greg Hands. Greg is a shadow Treasury minister and will be expecting a middle level goernment role should his lot win the election. I do feel that the more MPs get kicked about this the more they are likely to get nervous about staying with a scheme which can only pi$$ people off, cost moiney and achieve zip.

Hi Greg

The whole question of the implementation of the E Borders project lurches from plain incompetent planning to bizarre promotion. The forcing of this system onto leisure boating is alienating so many people who are, by nature and instinct, supporters of law and order that it will finish up as yet another huge and expensive government disaster.

The problem with finding computer solutions is that the efficiency of the solution is entirely dependant on the quality of the definition of the problem. If you don't understand the problem (& they clearly don't) then it is simply a case of "Garbage In = Garbage Out" - remember that ?

At the London Boat Show the UKBA have a stand. Sadly the staff seem to be shipped in simply to press the flesh as, in their own admission, they have little or no knowledge of the scheme.

Do you remember games in the Defence world called DERA and the F.I.S.T. (Future Infantry Soldier Technology) project? I remember a great TV expose 20 years ago (panorama) where a junior minister expounded confidently about how great this (then simulated) system would be for the soldier, integrating microwave TV, radio comms, gps, etc., into an integrated battlefield system. They also interviewed the chief designer, a slightly mad bloke who admitted he'd been inspired by the kit they had in the ALIENS movie, and wondered if they could do the same.... Not surprisngly, it couldn't and didn't work, and the project was scrapped

Now it seems that the entire Eborders thing is another example of the same, a theoretically wonderful (if you're a Security wonk) way of sieving out the nasty guys from the rest, and all sounds great and easy on paper. I think that Serco took the theory to a junior minister in need of a Headline project, and oversold their capacity to deliver whilst not actually having a clue about the real parameters of the "problem". Having seen some of this administration working from the inside, is it any wonder that this project is in the mess that it is?

Did you hear the chap on the radio the other morning? German, thick accent, saying something along the lines of 'The trouble with England is that they apply the letter of the law so firmly. In Germany and other places on the continent we are sensible about how we use the laws to guide us'

Last time I bought this up you stated the a conservative government supports this plan. If this is still the case, may I quote you? It is the subject of a great deal of comment in the boating fraternity, particularly as it appears that the implementation is about to be bought forward to next year. You can probably gather that I have yet to encounter any article or internet posting that expresses a view that this scheme will either work at all or even scratch the surface of the problem. Are you listening, as a Shadow Minister, or are you chaps going to repeat all the cock ups of the last 12 years.

Best regards

 

[Ubergeekian]

Merchant Shipping (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2002

If any officer appointed in accordance with regulation 30(1) reports to the master or other officer in charge of the bridge a door to be closed and locked when it is not in fact closed and locked he shall be guilty of an offence.

 

[Ubergeekian]

I suspect that e-borders will pan out like ID cards. Both could be a complete oppressive pain in the @rse, but only if the system were implemented and worked. Neither system will work. Government IT systems never work. They might be a temporary nuisance, but both schemes will collapse and cost us no more than a few billion pounds.

 

[Marsupial]

The problem with finding computer solutions is that the efficiency of the solution is entirely dependant on the quality of the definition of the problem. If you don't understand the problem (& they clearly don't) then it is simply a case of "Garbage In = Garbage Out" - remember that ?

yes! so "The unit within the system with the most behavioural responses to it controls the system."

ie UKBA dont have a system with more behavioural responses than "real life" so they will never control the situation. QED.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Ubergeekian,

And how many officers have been prosecuted under that law since it was introduced eight years ago?

To me, no prosecutions means an unnecessary law. There were, self-evidently, other ways of solving that particular problem.

 

[timbartlett]

Ubergeekian,

And how many officers have been prosecuted under that law since it was introduced eight years ago?

To me, no prosecutions means an unnecessary law. There were, self-evidently, other ways of solving that particular problem.

The other problem with that kind of micromanagement legislation -- particularly in these days of a penny-pinching and target-obsessed administration -- is that any law is open to misuse.
This particular law, for instance could make it a criminal offence to leave any door unlocked: it is not limited to watertight doors or doors associated with the safety of the vessel, but applies equally to the door of the galley fridge or the Chief's new car.
The only reason we haven't seen any prosecutions for that kind of trivia is that it is less lucrative than the misuse of road traffic and anti-terror legislation!
And bear in mind that the MCA are now trying to bring all "watercraft" (right down to 3ft bodyboards) into the scope of Merchant shipping laws.

 

[Tidewaiter2]

Spot on, Searush

Just one more aspect of Govt behaviour (this is completely apolitical - make no mistake, the tories will be just as bad, if not worse) is the following;

1/ introduce ill-considered law in response to perceived problem
2/ realise it is ineffective, so try to clamp-down on "Offenders"
3/ introduce targets to enforce clamp-down
4/ targets lead to enforcers focussing on the easy convictions - You & I
5/ innocent yotties end up in clink


Just look at past Govt performance on other "initiatives" - am I wrong?

Yep, take it from one who's seen it in action- you forgot the need to reach target for the Managers bonus, mind!(See my last rant on this). This is priority #1 of course!