A chat with e-borders at the boat show

[Caladh]

....coming home

When we go on a long cryuise (5 years say) we do not know when (or even if) we will return or by what route.
Our boat is at present overseas, but we may have to return on board to England sometime.
We do not use internet while on board.
We do not watch British TV or read British newspapers.
I thought we were all entitled to go to sea without let or hindrance.
How long a sentence will we get?

Nor do we know when we are coming home. I don't really believe you have no contact with the Uk - your are on this forum so are aware what is going on ! When and if you return to the UK you will either find out what you need to do legally before you arrive. It's no different from arriving in another EU or non-EU country. Whereever you arrive you'd comply with their laws wouldn't you ? You know that ignorance is no excuse!

I'm not saying E-Borders are good or bad but let's try and be objective about it/them.

[/I]

 

[Gludy]

"It's no different from arriving in another EU or non-EU country. Whereever you arrive you'd comply with their laws wouldn't you ? You know that ignorance is no excuse!
"I'm not saying E-Borders are good or bad but let's try and be objective about it/them."

Being objective about it there is a lot of difference.
E-Borders requires you to file the trip before to arrive. In most countries I cruise to I arrive and raise a Q flag then proceed according to the rules to immigration and customs etc. No problem.

With E-borders the simple fact of arriving without first telling them by electronic means where you will arrive, when you will arrive and with whom you will arrive is an offence!!!

So being objective about it, it is very, very different.

 

[timbartlett]

You're all missing the point. What occupation is most represented in Parliament? Lawyers.
Every new law is more work for lawyers. The number of new laws passed by the current Government is truly staggering. QED lawyers should not be allowed to stand for Parliament due to conflict of interest.
Once I cared, but now I have left the country so, Exodus or Revolution, what's it going to be?

You're making the rash assumption that our laws come from Parliament: they don't!
On average, more than 3000 new laws get added to the statute book every year.
About thirty of them are Acts of Parliament -- debated in the Houses of Lords and Commons, discussed in committee, and finally subjected to royal assent.
About three thousand of them -- about 99% -- are so-called secondary legislation, written by civil servants to suit the convenience of civil servants, and signed off by puppet ministers, with no effective parliamentary scrutiny at all.
I'm afraid the idea that we live in a parliamentary democracy has become a sick joke.

 

[Blue5]

Originally Posted by timbartlett View Post

The eborders man at the boat show made it pretty clear to me that eborders was electronic. No non-electronic options.

And this is the crux of the problem, they (UKBA) have been seduced by the idea that a "system" of some sort will do their work for them and such a system WILL provide the desired results. I started a thread on this back around 2006 ish when UKBA were asking for input and the forum wasnt interested. UKBA now is so committed that to overcome the issues with electronic reporting expect more boarding - these guys wont go away.

And that is obviously one stumbling block, if you change passage plan mid channel what do you do, no internet, no phone signal, in reality VHF to CG would seem a sensible solution but mindful of what was reported above. I have nothing to hide and no desire to break the law and if I am forced to change venue mid channel it is probably going to be a weather problem so I will be looking to reduce my workload not increase it by worrying that if I divert I will be prosecuted, probably a bit extreme but a detail that needs to be adressed

 

[Gludy]

I have a letter from the number 2 at e-borders stating that in such a case, you return and land where you can then AFTER landing you report that landing on the internet as soon as possible!!! Makes the whole thing meaningless but keeps their system going and employed a lot of people. It would be a mighty phone/text system that could cope with that!!

There can be many, many reasons why a boat turns up in a port unannounced. The question then boiled down to if the actions of the skipper be it engine trouble, a very seas sick crew members etc etc are reasonable .... I would not trust the officials to be able to judge that and upon that judgement - their judgement rests a prosecution!.

As their plans are shown to be absurd the cling to the electronics system and revise it making it even more absurd. There seems to be nobody there with a mix of experience and common sense as we head for yet another government computer system mess.

Anyone in private industry who managed so many computer cock ups as this government would not be allowed near a pocket calculator let alone a computer!!

The inmates are truly running the asylum. I know many who are planning to leave including myself.

 

[Searush]

I have worked for SERCO as a consultant. Their grasp of my topic was limited at best, but they had their "system" to run & guidance from the hired expert was not generally listened to.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose? (sorry about the lack of accents)

The problem with finding computer solutions is that the efficiency of the solution is entirely dependant on the quality of the definition of the problem. If you don't understand the problem (& they clearly don't) then it is simply a case of "Garbage In = Garbage Out" - remember that ?

I have no faith whatsoever in Govt funded computer solutions to ill-defined & poorly perceived "problems". The fact that the "problem" and its definition keep changing is a classic symptom of imminent programme runaway where costs & deadlines disappear over the far horizons. i suspect our only hope is a change of Govt (sadly I suspect the new lot will actually be worse than the current lot) so that this can be dumped as a bad idea from "the other side". The current Govt do not have enough confidence or Chutzpa to recognise when to quit or back down.

 

[Boreades]

MoodySabre deserves credit for posting on a subject that may affect us all. Sorry if some people confuse the message with the messenger and try to shoot MoodySabre

Anyway, I'm just trying to imagine how this will work operationally. We've not yet reached the point where we all have to have AIS fitted, and that's monitored and linked into this new system as well, so here goes with a few assumptions based on a web-based system.

#1:
- I'm being good
- I'm sitting in a marina with WiFi access
- My portable computer is working
- I have credit to pay for a WiFi connection, or I can walk across town to a cafe with free WiFi
- I've planned ahead
- I can access their website
- I can remember my account details
- I can logon
- All the crew have remembered to bring their passports with them
- All the passports are in-date and valid
- I've got my reading glasses and can read the passport numbers
- The UKBA system accepts the passport numbers as valid
- A journey record is going to have two parts: Part 1 = Intended journey details logged in advance + Part 2 = Confirmation of journey on completion
- I can complete Part 1 of this Journey that crosses borders from Departure point X to Destination point Y with an estimated journey duration of n hours

Phew - that's a bit of a stack of cards isn't it? Any one of those things could go wrong or fail, and I won't even be able to let them know my intentions are honourable.

OK, ready at the bow, cast off, and away we go. As well all know from daily life, most plans fail because of muppetry/accidents rather than evil intent. so let's chuck in some muppetry/accidents

#2: I forgot to shutdown the laptop properly. The battery goes flat. Half-way across, listening to HM Coastguard, we hear a warning "Gale force winds imminent". We've got some young/inexperienced crew onboard, so discretion is the better part of valour, and we decide to divert to Destination point Z after crossing a border. We get there, but I can't use the laptop, and we're stuck because of the weather.

It was my fault, but surely everything is alright, as nobody intended to do anything wrong. After all, we're innocent until proven guilty, aren't we?

#3 As far as UKBA is concerned:
- We failed to arrive at declared point X
- We failed to logon again and complete Part 2 of the declared Journey
- The system is designed to raise alerts on incomplete records


Now I'm speculating but I'd guess Alert #1 might be an email to my account's email address to politely tell me to complete the Journey record within some time, or face fines/possible imprisonment.

But
- I'n not going to see that email
- as it's a system run by a private company, one of the purposes of the system is to minimise its running cost by automated generation of revenue.

How can they do that? It would have to be automated fines, like the Congestion Charging Scheme, or VAT Declarations. So quite soon I am send an automated letter to my home address telling me I face a fine of (say) £100 for non-compliance etc increasing to (say) £300 unless you respond before dd/mm/yyyy

You can see how things can just go from bad to worse - your boat is now flagged as a suspect vessel, so two weeks later on the way back you get intercepted. You've not paid the fine, so you get arrested and your vessel is impounded.

Am I fantasising or is this a reasonable guess of how government IT systems tends to work?

 

[MoodySabre]

MoodySabre deserves credit for posting on a subject that may affect us all. Sorry if some people confuse the message with the messenger and try to shoot MoodySabre

Am I fantasising or is this a reasonable guess of how government IT systems tends to work?

Thanks I'm still alive.

I don't have much faith in Govt IT systems either but I do believe that the imposition of penalties (unlike speed cameras) is not their prime objective. They do seriously wish to catch those who should not be here (illegals or "watch list") - whether they can find some way of differentiating between those who are innocent but in breach and those who are guilty and in breach remains to be seen. They hope that they can.

I am an optimist by nature but that hasn't stopped me being wrong!

 

[rtchina]

illegals

Saw a program last night about poor EU women being paid to marry illegals so that they can stay. Law Lords ruled that they had the right to marry, not to join them in wedlock breached their human rights. So Just what is the problem with small boats? that they might bring illegals in? Oh come on. Exodus or Revolution, it simply cannot go on like this.

 

[fireball]

Thanks I'm still alive.

I don't have much faith in Govt IT systems either but I do believe that the imposition of penalties (unlike speed cameras) is not their prime objective. They do seriously wish to catch those who should not be here (illegals or "watch list") - whether they can find some way of differentiating between those who are innocent but in breach and those who are guilty and in breach remains to be seen. They hope that they can.

I am an optimist by nature but that hasn't stopped me being wrong!

Whilst I'd like to share you optomism I can only hope that eborders will never be implemented for sailors as I know the civil service clowns will just use non-compliance as a means of raising revenue. Computer systems usually see things as black and White so automated fines will soon be the norm. It really means nothing to me if a ukba rep says they'll use discretion as that just means we cannot expect to be 'let off' if we have to make a seamanlike decision that results in breaking the law, but if we're lucky we might get away with it.

MS - thanks for your report. But sorry I don't read it at face value.

 

[Boreades]

Thanks I'm still alive.

I don't have much faith in Govt IT systems either but I do believe that the imposition of penalties (unlike speed cameras) is not their prime objective. They do seriously wish to catch those who should not be here (illegals or "watch list") - whether they can find some way of differentiating between those who are innocent but in breach and those who are guilty and in breach remains to be seen. They hope that they can.

I am an optimist by nature but that hasn't stopped me being wrong!

I agree it won't be a declared part of UKBA's strategic policy, but (I suspect) it will be a measurable part of the operational business objectives for a commercial system.

As for "differentiating between those who are innocent but in breach and those who are guilty and in breach ... They hope that they can" - if I may be so bold, I guess we'll agree that people "like us" posting on this thread would be the innocents, or the "false positives".

By analogy, part of my day-job involves auditing anomolies in medical research data. 90%+ of the anomolies are down to human muppetry or system failures, and only rarely is it down to someone trying to cheat the system. But it can take months or years of gathering data before finding reliable ways of automating the differentiating of innocent cases (us good people) from the deliberate cases (those other bad nasty people). In the meantime, you have to start by treating all anomolies the same.

I suspect this is the kind of operational problem the UKBO will have, because it will be collecting data from a huge number of people accessing the system in a fairly large number of ways, with plenty of scope for innocent error.

Plus, I expect there will be political and management pressure to "get results" .

 

[Seven Spades]

Thanks I'm still alive.

I don't have much faith in Govt IT systems either but I do believe that the imposition of penalties (unlike speed cameras) is not their prime objective. They do seriously wish to catch those who should not be here (illegals or "watch list") - whether they can find some way of differentiating between those who are innocent but in breach and those who are guilty and in breach remains to be seen. They hope that they can.

I am an optimist by nature but that hasn't stopped me being wrong!

Really, try going to Royal Surrey Hospital. Until recently you paid for parking on exit by entering your parking ticket and paying the appropriate amount. THIS SYSTEM ENSURED THAT NO ONE WAS EVER GIVEN A TICKET FOR OVER STAYING. Now they have replaced that system with one of pay and display so you need to know in advance how long then NHS is going to keep you beyond your appointment time at the time of parking.

The only reason for changing the system is to issue penalty notices or to force people to pay for time they are not going to use.

 

[rickym]

As I understand it the e-boarders pilot is only working with airlines at present. you can still turn up at dover and just get on a ferry. Eurostar and Eurotunnel likewise. UKBA have not addressed these forms of transport. The train and ferry operators are resisting. To implement e-boarders at dover would mean redesigning the port. Who pays? Do they get planning permission? At the end of the day money talks. In the industry I work in some of my clients have been told by HMG to improve aspects of their security. OK says private industry who pays? Not I says HMG. NOTHING happens! If it ain't broke don't fix it is the attitude. Until UKBA gets the scheme working with the ferries and the trains (probably never) I cannot see it being implemented for leisure boating. However the more pressure these guys have at this stage the better. With luck the cost v benefit will ensure the scheme is scrapped as we will not be able to afford it!

 

[andymcp]

The whole thing is ludicrous - a terrorist would not sail in via the Solent if he knew there was an e-border boat there.

If I was a terrorist, that's exactly where I'd sail in. With a registered plan that matched my movements. Clean as a whistle, I'd be.

And what does the future hold (since no legislation ever stops at round 1)? My guess is that there will be publicised instances of some dodgy occurrences happening on UK to UK journeys. Maybe drugs, something just bad enough that Something Must Be Done. Hey presto, the 'successful' scheme where you register your journeys extends to all sea voyages, inshore or offshore. It's a winner on several fronts - boating is a rich man's sport and who cares about them? If you're doing nothing wrong why object? Other people do it already (I'll offer an advanced bet that the example trotted out is climbers letting people know where they're going and when they're due back) so why object?

It will soon, in the UK, be illegal to walk up to your boat, untie, and go wherever your fancy takes you.

Although I agree with MoodySabre in that I don't think the current representatives want this to be a burden or inconvenience, it will inevitably become so. Such is the nature of any govt driven by statistics and targets.

 

[Seven Spades]

It will soon, in the UK, be illegal to walk up to your boat, untie, and go wherever your fancy takes you.

Technically it is already, you first have to have a passage plan.

 

[sailorman]

If I was a terrorist, that's exactly where I'd sail in. With a registered plan that matched my movements. Clean as a whistle, I'd be.

And what does the future hold (since no legislation ever stops at round 1)? My guess is that there will be publicised instances of some dodgy occurrences happening on UK to UK journeys. Maybe drugs, something just bad enough that Something Must Be Done. Hey presto, the 'successful' scheme where you register your journeys extends to all sea voyages, inshore or offshore. It's a winner on several fronts - boating is a rich man's sport and who cares about them? If you're doing nothing wrong why object? Other people do it already (I'll offer an advanced bet that the example trotted out is climbers letting people know where they're going and when they're due back) so why object?

It will soon, in the UK, be illegal to walk up to your boat, untie, and go wherever your fancy takes you.

Although I agree with MoodySabre in that I don't think the current representatives want this to be a burden or inconvenience, it will inevitably become so. Such is the nature of any govt driven by statistics and targets.

Remember the 70 mph "Fuel Saving" speed limit introduced as a temp measure

 

[andymcp]

Remember the 70 mph "Fuel Saving" speed limit introduced as a temp measure

There's a speed limit in the UK?

 

[Tommyrot]

Technically it is already, you first have to have a passage plan.

Which doesn't need to be in writing.

 

[Elessar]

Nope. They can't possibly identify every car going into the congestion zone, and they do not attempt to do so. A bus or modestly sized van, for example, will obscure the numberplate of a car immediately in front of it (or behind it, depending on which way the cameras face).

that's part of the reason why there are cameras in the zone too, not just at the boundary. And you get clocked on the way in AND the way out. Virtually no chance of evading it if you have a legal numberplate.

As for the eborders, are the guys at the show in transmit mode only or is there actually some point to speaking to them?

 

[Major Catastrophe]

that's part of the reason why there are cameras in the zone too, not just at the boundary. And you get clocked on the way in AND the way out. Virtually no chance of evading it if you have a legal numberplate.

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