A chat with e-borders at the boat show

[john_morris_uk]

What jury?

I assume that like most serious criminal matters, people would have the option of taking any alleged offence to a criminal court with a jury. There is nothing to suggest that automatic fines akin to parking tickets or speeding fines are going to be issued for offences against the border controls.

For those who advocate being stroppy with officials, perhaps they should remember that 'compliance' is often used to determine the attitude of the police or government agents.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Nope. They can't possibly identify every car going into the congestion zone, and they do not attempt to do so. A bus or modestly sized van, for example, will obscure the numberplate of a car immediately in front of it (or behind it, depending on which way the cameras face).

I looked into this when I got my fine. They have cameras at every road entering and exiting the CC zone backed up with cameras within the zone.

All camera locations have at least three cameras looking in both directions. When I researched this, if you are driving a car within the CC zone they will capture your number, if not twice, but many times.

Full list here: http://www.yrtk.org/?pagename=secret-squirrel/tfl-cc-cameras/tfl-cc-cameras-locations

Also, "These cameras are located at all entry points into the London congestion charge zone and within the zone itself and actually photograph both front and rear plates on entry and exit of the zones. There also some mobile units that can take pictures anywhere within the zone." From this website: http://www.milesfaster.co.uk/information/london-congestion-charge.htm

I have been told that there is no way of avoiding a fine, except with false number plates. There is no hiding place.

 

[sailorman]

That looks just like Mine

Or even what Johnny Foreigner should do when he keeps his foreign registered boat in the UK.

That one really threw the eBorders lot at SIBS - but they did provide me with an e-mail address where I could get an answer.
Much to my surprise I (eventually) got a reply.

Long and short of it: 'we haven't really considered this situation, but we think that these would be very few and far between; so we're not bothering'.

Fine by me. I now keep a copy of this e-mail on the boat (as a 'Get Out of Jail Free - card') and I have replaced this

with this

 

[oldharry]

I thought the gentleman on the e-borders stand was trying to be reasonable and understanding. He didn't invent the scheme so there was no point in being unfriendly.

I put forward the scenario and leaving Ostend for Harwich in a bit of a blow, 2 hours out you say sod this for a lark and make for Neuiwport and 3 days later arrive in Ramsgate. How does that work?

. As to the specific scenarion he said that technically they could prosecute but he would ask 3 things:.....

...and there is the sting in the tail: "....they could prosecute...". That means that sooner or later some innocent yottie who has got blown around a bit and ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time WILL be prosecuted. The LIBS rep may well ask himself 3 things. Not every little petty Hitler is going to - particularly if he has just been carpeted by his boss for not meeting Govt targets.

The Boat Show rep is there to sell the idea to us and try to convince us that this particular bit of legislation is a GOOD THING. But even he has to admit, that given this entirely normal situation, you will have actually broken the law. The next step depends on the goodwill or otherwise of official involved.

It is NOT, and never will do anything except give us a load of grief - as well as criminalising a number of us. How many remains to be seen.

 

[maxi77]

...and there is the sting in the tail: "....they could prosecute...". That means that sooner or later some innocent yottie who has got blown around a bit and ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time WILL be prosecuted. The LIBS rep may well ask himself 3 things. Not every little petty Hitler is going to - particularly if he has just been carpeted by his boss for not meeting Govt targets.

The Boat Show rep is there to sell the idea to us and try to convince us that this particular bit of legislation is a GOOD THING. But even he has to admit, that given this entirely normal situation, you will have actually broken the law. The next step depends on the goodwill or otherwise of official involved.

It is NOT, and never will do anything except give us a load of grief - as well as criminalising a number of us. How many remains to be seen.

Perhaps the greatest worry is that as this legislation is not to improve immigration control but rather to appear as if they have improved immigration control and as a result officials will be on a three line whip to prosecute at every opportunity so that it appears that they are doing sommething. We are going to be the patsy for the incompetant immigration service to get their own back for all the hassle that the public have created to srew up their easy life.

Moody Sabre appears to have been conned by a well briefed front man

 

[MoodySabre]

Moody Sabre appears to have been conned by a well briefed front man

So someone else wants to call me gullible and naive

I tell you about a conversation yet I am the messenger who gets pilloried. I am mild tempered and patient but some of you are unbelievable - why don't you shut your gobs, piss off to the boat show and talk to them yourself.

I hope you get strip searched every time you go three miles offshore.

YES I AM ANNOYED BY PERSONAL COMMENTS

 

[Kawasaki]

So someone else wants to call me gullible and naive

I tell you about a conversation yet I am the messenger who gets pilloried. I am mild tempered and patient but some of you are unbelievable - why don't you shut your gobs, piss off to the boat show and talk to them yourself.

I hope you get strip searched every time you go three miles offshore.

YES I AM ANNOYED BY PERSONAL COMMENTS

MoodySabre
I thank you for Your origional post
Interesting stuff
Another case of some Forumites shooting the Messenger it seems.

Some of whom probably don't go anywhwere anyway!

ID cards, legislation. compulsory training etc etc.
Yep, we don't want it.

If the UKBA can help to curtail the passage of drugs or 'Illegals' into our shores.
Well, I for one don't mind filling some forms in or letting the Chaps aboard.

Plus, how often is this scenario going to happen or bother us in our normal leisure boating activities?

Hands up Lads
How many times a Year do You go to Foreign climbs?

OK , You Chaps down South may have more chance to be boarded by these Guys than we do 'oop North'

Cos of the Channel etc I suppose.

But heck, lets give them a chance

In the light of recent events

Don't you think?

Further more
I doubt the UKBA will ever be able to monitor/handle the Job anyway!

Probably all be binned in a few Years due too lack of funds anyway

 

[Sandyman]

''But heck, lets give them a chance''

No way. I for one have had enough of this big brother dictatorial police state telling me what I cant, can and will do. Sod them.

 

[capnsensible]

Moodysabre

I thank you too.

From a simple report on a true life conversation, you have rattled the cages of the:
Self Important
Self Righteous
Indignant
Paranoid
I know best
Pompous
Speculators

Maybe, one day, some of them will visit places, by yacht, where they are not the most special thing on the planet!!

Dont let it get you down!!

Regards, Chris

 

[Searush]

Moodysabre

I thank you too.

From a simple report on a true life conversation, you have rattled the cages of the:
Self Important
Self Righteous
Indignant
Paranoid
I know best
Pompous
Speculators

Maybe, one day, some of them will visit places, by yacht, where they are not the most special thing on the planet!!

Dont let it get you down!!

Regards, Chris

I take it you don't approve of name calling & personal insults then? Shame on you for resorting to it. You have lowered the tone of the forum.

Of course every one appreciates Moody's report of his conversation, but, strangely(?) there is little trust in the information provided by the government's spokesmen. This has nothing to do with Moody & everything to do with the total lack of a workable plan for the e-boarders scheme for yotties, together with (in most cases, I suspect) personal experience of being Jobsworth'd at some time or other during our lives.

For an official representative to tell us "common sense will prevail" after we have "committed a crime" inadvertently is not reassuring to most of us. I'm sure Moody trusts the individuals that he spoke to, however, they are unlikely to be the ones making the decision to prosecute or not when push comes to shove.

I'm sorry Moody does not like our questioning the situation, but, at best, the whole sorry mess sounds unworkable, & at worst, someone (probably not me as I have not gone foreign for some years now) will end up in deep doo doo.

The only option I can see is that we must file reports every time there is a possibility of going foreign & then file corrections at the end of the voyage. It's a pity that we can't use VHF for the reports - it might ensure the survival of HMCG's VHF watch service.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Well said Searush, particularly about the civil servant manning the stand will not be the target obsessed operative sailors will be dealing with when they trangress the rules.

 

[timbartlett]

I, too, had a long discussion with a couple of chaps on the UKBA stand. They seemed to be a little more senior, a little older, and quite a lot more diplomatic than their counterparts at SIBS -- and I think they may possibly have been a little shell-shocked by the strength of feeling they had come across.
I certainly got the feeling that they are back-tracking fast -- the 24 hours notice via website nonsense seems to be on its way out, in favour of half hour before departure notice by mobile phone, and the implimentation date seems to be delayed
But I also got the feeling that they were trying to persuade me that eborders was all about smuggling rather than immigration, which made me wonder whether it has become a solution in search of a problem
They also explained that recreational craft had to be included because it was "so successful" (?) at ports and airports that criminals would be forced to turn to small craft. Which seems counterproductive to me, because it means that instead of being able to keep an eye on a few dozen ports and airports, UKBA now have to look out over thousands of miles of coastline!

Attitude is the thing - those who thrive on confrontation will receive some back and deservedly so.

Exactly so. So when they lie to us, threaten us, and generally treat us like s h1t, then they should expect to receive some back and deservedly so.

I should have guessed that the vosiferous minority would respond.

The point is that they don't want to officious - they are not trying to make life difficult. I don't like this kind of bureaucracy any more than anybody else, heavens above we have enough to put up with. At the end of the day you wil achieve nothing by being awkward - the civil servants who are at the front line are just doing their job and want it to be easy too.

Funny, isn't it, that when any large number of people oppose someone else's views, they are dismissed as "a vociferous minority". And that anyone who expects officials to act within the law and without being threatening or intimidating is accused of being "awkward".

Repeat - if your intent is not to break law but underlyingly to act reasonably then nobody is going to waste time on you. There will be means to deal with this for those who have no electronic means of communication, just as their is for buying your TV licence, taxing your car or paying your congestion charge.

The eborders man at the boat show made it pretty clear to me that eborders was electronic. No non-electronic options.

As for those who suffer at the hands of VAT etc - in my long experience those who fulfil their obligations in a timely and correct manner have few problems. The nature of these things is that needs to be some sampling to verify the performance of the system - fact of life.

I'm sorry, MoodySabre, but your experience is very different from that of many of the rest of us. My long experience is that fulfilling your obligations in a timely and correct manner is no defence against a civil servant who has made a mistake but doesn't want to admit it, or against one with a target to meet. And if by "sampling" you mean "fishing expeditions", or bogus "penalties" imposed in the expectation that most people will pay up rather than fight, then I'm afraid I can't accept that they are ever justified. They are fraud, and the perpetrators should be dealt with accordingly.

 

[Sandyman]

I was doing a google to see what I could find.

Found this which explains a great deal. Parasites on the public purse.

eBorders
eBoarders

e-Borders is central to UK government on transforming border control to ensure greater security, effectiveness, and efficiency. Successful delivery by Serco of the e-Borders programme against a backdrop of changing customer requirements, tight deadlines and major shifts in global aviation and transport is a huge challenge. The e-Borders team of people from across Serco Civil Government, Solutions and Consulting has been working incredibly hard to ensure we deliver on our promises and that the programme remains on schedule. They have worked tirelessly to meet changing programme requirements and meet our customer commitments, regularly working long shifts and weekends, often at the expense of family or social life. From across Serco this has been a true team effort to deliver on our promises.

 

[Gludy]

Well said Tim
The move or hints of a shift over to last minute mobile reporting, which is new, does sound absurd because they system would have to have logged the passport details etc of everyone on the trip prior to the mobile phone trigger. A crew member does not turn up and the mobile phone would trigger him as leaving the country and given that it is last minute - what use is the system anyway?

I was corresponding via my MP with the NO.2 there and gave them specific scenarios, he responded and eventually had to conceded after landing reporting of who enters the country but when having laid out his plans I returned with details examples of how it could not work the matter was taken over by the NO 1 who sent me a letter of pure political spin that did not answer a single question. He has not replied to my answer to that.

What is clear is that they are now getting some small grasp of the issues and how in trying to find solutions to those issues they are are forgetting what the purpose of the system is anyway - the baby is being thrown out with the bath water.

We seem to be entering the stage were they are grasping for face saving solutions that offer no real security but just pretend to. This of course just diverts resources from the real task of keeping our borders secure - appearing to keep them secure is more important politically than making them secure.

Nor is there a real problem to solve here. Pleasure craft have no great history of smuggling in terrorists. A far better way is to recruit pleasure sailors as the eyes and ears of a watch system and making a contact telephone number very clear to everyone so that this watch system forms part of an overall sensible plan. However there is no real empire and glory to be built out of this - maybe that is the problem.

I think the lack of response of the boss of the E-borders to my latest letters is because they are trying to work out how they can get around the problems being encountered on every front. It seems the system they propose is in a state of flux. However - there is no open discussion, Rather they play it all close to their chest occasionally coming forward with absurd 'solutions' that make the farce even worse.

 

[rtchina]

missing the point

You're all missing the point. What occupation is most represented in Parliament? Lawyers.
Every new law is more work for lawyers. The number of new laws passed by the current Government is truly staggering. QED lawyers should not be allowed to stand for Parliament due to conflict of interest.
Once I cared, but now I have left the country so, Exodus or Revolution, what's it going to be?

 

[sailorman]

Well said Tim
The move or hints of a shift over to last minute mobile reporting, which is new, does sound absurd because they system would have to have logged the passport details etc of everyone on the trip prior to the mobile phone trigger. A crew member does not turn up and the mobile phone would trigger him as leaving the country and given that it is last minute - what use is the system anyway?

I was corresponding via my MP with the NO.2 there and gave them specific scenarios, he responded and eventually had to conceded after landing reporting of who enters the country but when having laid out his plans I returned with details examples of how it could not work the matter was taken over by the NO 1 who sent me a letter of pure political spin that did not answer a single question. He has not replied to my answer to that.

What is clear is that they are now getting some small grasp of the issues and how in trying to find solutions to those issues they are are forgetting what the purpose of the system is anyway - the baby is being thrown out with the bath water.

We seem to be entering the stage were they are grasping for face saving solutions that offer no real security but just pretend to. This of course just diverts resources from the real task of keeping our borders secure - appearing to keep them secure is more important politically than making them secure.

Nor is there a real problem to solve here. Pleasure craft have no great history of smuggling in terrorists. A far better way is to recruit pleasure sailors as the eyes and ears of a watch system and making a contact telephone number very clear to everyone so that this watch system forms part of an overall sensible plan. However there is no real empire and glory to be built out of this - maybe that is the problem.

I think the lack of response of the boss of the E-borders to my latest letters is because they are trying to work out how they can get around the problems being encountered on every front. It seems the system they propose is in a state of flux. However - there is no open discussion, Rather they play it all close to their chest occasionally coming forward with absurd 'solutions' that make the farce even worse.

The ukba need to get Sir Brian Rix & his team on board
Make a real Farce of it

 

[Tommyrot]

Is SERCO really involved in E-Borders?

The fact that they are deeply involved in speed cameras doesn't fill me with confidence....

 

[Marsupial]

The eborders man at the boat show made it pretty clear to me that eborders was electronic. No non-electronic options.

And this is the crux of the problem, they (UKBA) have been seduced by the idea that a "system" of some sort will do their work for them and such a system WILL provide the desired results. I started a thread on this back around 2006 ish when UKBA were asking for input and the forum wasnt interested. UKBA now is so committed that to overcome the issues with electronic reporting expect more boarding - these guys wont go away.

 

[Alfie168]

So...according to the man at LIBS.

1) File a route plan with e borders
2) Do what you like afterwards..within reason.

triffic

Tim

 

[Major Catastrophe]

And this is the crux of the problem, they (UKBA) have been seduced by the idea that a "system" of some sort will do their work for them and such a system WILL provide the desired results. I started a thread on this back around 2006 ish when UKBA were asking for input and the forum wasnt interested. UKBA now is so committed that to overcome the issues with electronic reporting expect more boarding - these guys wont go away.

With Serco involved, it will be like the speed cameras. If you are not registered with DVLA you won't get the fine.

With an electronic only eBorders, if you follow the rules but make one mistake, you will be prosecuted. If you don't tell them you are going to France, they won't know and if caught you just say you didn't land or leave UK waters.

It is all part of this governments plan to turn over as much of governments 'policing' of us to computer based systems, where eventually companies like Serco will become a government sponsored fine collection agency.