A chat with e-borders at the boat show

[Ubergeekian]

You're welcome. Attitude is the thing - those who thrive on confrontation will receive some back and deservedly so.

Why deservedly? Since when has "confrontational attitude" merited punishment by the state?

 

[Ubergeekian]

In addition to your examples, may I cite that of the London Congestion Charge whose finances depend on the ability to fine people for forgetfulness. I live in the zone and in about half the weeks of the year I drive 100 yards to the edge of the zone, for which I have to pay £4 on the day, with no reminder being provided. If I forget, which I have done four times, it costs me £60. I would gladly prefund my account to cover the charge, or set up a direct debit for it, but there features are not allowed because they would lose the revenue from fines..

They are not allowed because detecting and identifying every car entering the zone would be far, far, far more complicated than expensive than simply picking up a suitably deterrent proportion once they are inside.

 

[MoodySabre]

Why deservedly? Since when has "confrontational attitude" merited punishment by the state?

You have quoted out of context - confrontational attitude will be met by a firm response not necessarily punishment. Deservedly - because some people express opinions like "I'm not going to allow anyone on my boat" which are frankly plain daft. If they wish to board you and you tell them to sod off then they will not say "Sorry to have asked sir, have a nice day" - they will enforce their legal rights and probably give you a hard time.

 

[rallyveteran]

This is thread drift, but..

They are not allowed because detecting and identifying every car entering the zone would be far, far, far more complicated than expensive than simply picking up a suitably deterrent proportion once they are inside.

You don't understand how the congestion charge is enforced. Every vehicle that crosses the border of the zone or moves within it is indeed identified (by camera). Fines are not issued to a proportion but to all vehicles that haven't paid the charge and drive within range of one of the hundreds of cameras. And they could have allowed pre-payment, because that is exactly what they are going to do, 7 years late, from next year, but it took a change of political administration before that happened.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Thank you - I don't think anyone would call me stupid.

Except Sailfree!

 

[Seven Spades]

"We do know what is being proposed and it is compulsory web posting of each outside the UK trip with a lot of passenger details plus destination details. This is to be done within 24 hours of departure (not before) but can be done the minute you depart!

You could even be 10 miles out, decide to go to France and then log in (assuming sat internet access on the boat) and report the trip.

Are you sure, I thought you had to file your planed your trip MORE than 24 hours in advance.

 

[P4Paul]

You don't understand how the congestion charge is enforced. Every vehicle that crosses the border of the zone or moves within it is indeed identified (by camera). Fines are not issued to a proportion but to all vehicles that haven't paid the charge and drive within range of one of the hundreds of cameras. And they could have allowed pre-payment, because that is exactly what they are going to do, 7 years late, from next year, but it took a change of political administration before that happened.

I was under the impression from friends that the congestion charge can be prepaid upto 90 days in advance, is this not the case?

 

[Major Catastrophe]

They are not allowed because detecting and identifying every car entering the zone would be far, far, far more complicated than expensive than simply picking up a suitably deterrent proportion once they are inside.

I can assure you that every car that enters and exits the Congestion Zone is caught on ANPR cameras set up on EVERY road that crosses the 'border'.

Last year, because of a broken down bus, I accidentally turned off the Vauxhall Bridge/Edware Road 'free' corridor. I immediately did a three point turn and if I had thought I had fully entered a Congestion Charge road I would have paid the £8 charge that day.

A letter with a demand for £60 a week later put me right on that one. I did however like the full page of excuses they supplied that I was likely to use, including getting lost, obstruction of signs by another vehicle, accidents, and then helpfully pointing out that any appeal with any of the excuses listed would dismissed out of hand.

I paid.

I expect the UKBA to be no different if a sailor makes a 'mistake'. Government agencies do not give the benefit of doubt.

 

[rallyveteran]

I was under the impression from friends that the congestion charge can be prepaid upto 90 days in advance, is this not the case?

You can prepay, but have to specify the day to which it applies. You can't give them £50 and say "take £4 any day that I use the car" even though the technology to do it is there. That would be too easy for the driver and would lose them the revenue from fines.

 

[Boreades]

Whilst what you say might appear to be true, proscecutions only succeed when a jury finds you guilty. The people who work for the agency might sometimes appear to be obnoxious but I try not to be paranoid about the consequences. Plenty of people moan about our lack of border controls, so it seems a bit rich to moan about an attempt to sort things out.

What jury?

 

[Gludy]

"Are you sure, I thought you had to file your planed your trip MORE than 24 hours in advance."
I am sure - you can file up the last minute and indeed would not often know when was on board until the last minute. The filing more than 24 hours in advance has never been proposed and would be a major restriction on movement and freedom. You can from 24 hours up to time of departure.

They have no time to react to the data you are filing anyway!!!

 

[Major Catastrophe]

"Are you sure, I thought you had to file your planed your trip MORE than 24 hours in advance."
I am sure - you can file up the last minute and indeed would not often know when was on board until the last minute. The filing more than 24 hours in advance has never been proposed and would be a major restriction on movement and freedom. You can from 24 hours up to time of departure.

They have no time to react to the data you are filing anyway!!!

I think that is correct as our Jacqui, before she stepped down as Home Secretary said this in parliament: http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200708/cmhansrd/cm081120/text/81120w0010.htm

"Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will reduce for leisure boaters the period of notice required for the passenger and crew manifests and boat details of boats entering or leaving UK waters to be submitted under the e-borders scheme. [233577]

Jacqui Smith [holding answer 6 November 2008]: The UK Border Agency (UKBA) is required to balance its obligation to the security of the United Kingdom's border with that of facilitating the entry and exit of legitimate travellers. The e-Borders system will assist in providing that balance.

Under the e-Borders system, leisure boaters will have 48 hours before an international voyage takes place to submit crew information and 24 hours for passenger information.

The data should be submitted before the voyage occurs and they would be expected no later than 30 minutes before departure. It is recognised that precise timing is not always possible in this environment, and hence there is considerable flexibility in this regard."

However, all the UKBA consultation papers state that notification must be made 24 hours BEFORE departure and Jacqui's statement makes a nonsense of the stated aim of eBorders to allow the UKBA to react to the departure or arrival of a 'suspect'.

In this doc: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/em/uksiem_20080539_en.pdf

the stated aim of eBorders is: "The ability to obtain the required data in advance of travel is key to a) allowing the border agencies to identify and take appropriate action against known individuals who present a risk, and b) risk assessment analysis. Carriers will be required to provide information at various points during the travel process; the main obligations falling at between 24 and 48 hours prior to departure, at check-in and on departure. "

While Jacqui throws us a lifeline that is not fully documented by the agency (Unless someone can find it) Eurostar and the Dover ferries are fighting the loss of their turn up and walk on passengers. Put it this way, you cannot just turn up at Waterloo and buy a Eurostar ticket. You will have to book 24 hours in advance, probably with a credit card as the government desperately wants that information as well, so they can leave it on the seat of a bus sometime.

There is a delicious whiff of Schadenfreude about all this.

 

[Koeketiene]

Nobody has yet addressed the Jonny Foreigner arriving from a Shengen Country & what procedures / hoops he & his crew have to jump through

Or even what Johnny Foreigner should do when he keeps his foreign registered boat in the UK.

That one really threw the eBorders lot at SIBS - but they did provide me with an e-mail address where I could get an answer.
Much to my surprise I (eventually) got a reply.

Long and short of it: 'we haven't really considered this situation, but we think that these would be very few and far between; so we're not bothering'.

Fine by me. I now keep a copy of this e-mail on the boat (as a 'Get Out of Jail Free - card') and I have replaced this

with this

 

[ctelfer38]

The seaward end of the Iron Curtain

on the Baltic coast was secured by Eastern Europe communist states closely controlling who could leave or arrive by sea in a small yacht. The freedom that came when that detestable system collapsed was like a cleansing and refreshing wind.
What a disgrace that we should be sleepwalking into a border control system that is all too similar.

 

[glashen]

Do you get the feeling that this is another mess that the present government won't be that upset if it is someone else who ends up having to sort out.

 

[wildboar72]

So if I were to try and emulate Sir RKJ i would be OK I take as in I don't intend landing anywhere but may be away some time??

Another law which once brought in even if unworkable WILL NOT be revisited as someone might lose face. And another knee jerk type law which only affects the honest people. Most of those if not all that have come to our country and comitted offences have been allowed in by those who run the country but once identified they are not removed so why bother with this extra admin?

Remove all those who contribute nothing other than admin to our country prove you can serve a practical purpose for a change and our country might become a bit better.. otherwise stop telling me what I can and can't do in the country I was born in and that my ancestors have fought and one or 2 died for these miserable politicians are no good for anything other than getting in the way of those who try to do something useful so why don't they just P**s off and leave us alone..

 

[Ubergeekian]

You have quoted out of context - confrontational attitude will be met by a firm response not necessarily punishment. Deservedly - because some people express opinions like "I'm not going to allow anyone on my boat" which are frankly plain daft. If they wish to board you and you tell them to sod off then they will not say "Sorry to have asked sir, have a nice day" - they will enforce their legal rights and probably give you a hard time.

I thought they had no legal right to board anyway? The mags have reported at least one yachtsman refusing their "request" successfully.

 

[Ubergeekian]

You don't understand how the congestion charge is enforced. Every vehicle that crosses the border of the zone or moves within it is indeed identified (by camera).

Nope. They can't possibly identify every car going into the congestion zone, and they do not attempt to do so. A bus or modestly sized van, for example, will obscure the numberplate of a car immediately in front of it (or behind it, depending on which way the cameras face).

Fines are not issued to a proportion but to all vehicles that haven't paid the charge and drive within range of one of the hundreds of cameras.

They fine everyone they catch, but they don't expect to catch, or need to catch, everyone. As with railway fare evasion (where it's 4%) there is a financially optimum level of evasion.

And they could have allowed pre-payment, because that is exactly what they are going to do, 7 years late, from next year, but it took a change of political administration before that happened.

After the introduction of a completely new camera and enforcement system, yes.

 

[Ubergeekian]

I can assure you that every car that enters and exits the Congestion Zone is caught on ANPR cameras set up on EVERY road that crosses the 'border'.

Last year, because of a broken down bus, I accidentally turned off the Vauxhall Bridge/Edware Road 'free' corridor. I immediately did a three point turn and if I had thought I had fully entered a Congestion Charge road I would have paid the £8 charge that day.

A letter with a demand for £60 a week later put me right on that one.

Erm, the fact that you were caught does not prove that everyone is caught. The best ANPR systems manage about 90% accuracy, by the way.

 

[Ubergeekian]

You can prepay, but have to specify the day to which it applies. You can't give them £50 and say "take £4 any day that I use the car" even though the technology to do it is there. That would be too easy for the driver and would lose them the revenue from fines.

Any sensible driver, in that case, would put a few days' worth into the pot and keep an eye on their account, only topping up as necessary. Depnding on route, timing and cunning that could easily be up to a 50% saving.