A chat with e-borders at the boat show

[Ludd]

compliance

Simply stated-- I won't!
I CARRY A bRITISH passport(although I' m Scottish )d who d. I will allow no one on board who is not "personna gratta" in UK. stuff 'em

 

[lenseman]

. . . .I will allow no one on board who is not "personna gratta" in UK. stuff 'em

Oh dear, such a lot you have to learn!

They come aboard whether you like it or not. First they ask and and the same time they start to climb over your rails. This is the power of the Customs men, the Preventative men, Excisemen, known locally now as UKBA call them what you will!

 

[dk]

As regards lying in wait with radar - radar does not name the boat and the vast majority of radar contents would be exempt boats with journeys within the UK .... it is not viable.
QUOTE]

Compulsory AIS?

 

[Major Catastrophe]

QUOTE]

Compulsory AIS?[/QUOTE]

Discussed before and found unworkable. Criminals will not switch it on and how are you going to identify that particular boat from the clutter of AIS signals in the Channal on a busy Saturday afternoon? If they can't get scrotes to tax a car with ANPR all over the place, they aren't going to switch on the AIS.

The Solent would become one big AIS cloud on the map.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

I thought the gentleman on the e-borders stand was trying to be reasonable and understanding. He didn't invent the scheme so there was no point in being unfriendly.

I put forward the scenario and leaving Ostend for Harwich in a bit of a blow, 2 hours out you say sod this for a lark and make for Neuiwport and 3 days later arrive in Ramsgate. How does that work?

Well he said - the idea is that you will pre-register withe website and set up your favourite or likely trips. When you plan to go on a trip you send them a text message code and the job is done. He said they weren't out to make life difficult for me - what they wanted was to reduce the size of the haystack in which they looked for a needle. By me registering I am removed from their haystack. As to the specific scenarion he said that technically they could prosecute but he would ask 3 things:
1. would the man on the Clapham omnibus say that I had acted reasonably - of course he would.
2. Was there any intent by me to break the law - well no.
3. If he prosecuted would he have a case - of course not.

So all in all I thought that some measure of common sense was being applied and the onus on leisure boaters will not be significant. I did tell him that sailing was one of the great freedoms and there was some resentment at control-freakery. He understood this and said they wouldn't roll out the system for boaters until it was working and easy.

Not worth getting worked up over IMHO. Accept the inevitable and get on with enjoying yourelf.

Thanks for letting us know.

I find most people are realistic and understanding whoever they are. Our initial attitude is all important.

 

[Bilgediver]

coming through check @ stansted on 26/12 i told the ukba chappie who checked me in he needed some manners & to be less aggressive as the Spaniards are

I must say that the UKBA team at Edinburgh Airport the other night had definitely been to charm school and the only little hitler was the BAA staff member directing the queues who could have done with a visit to her hairbrush as well as charm school and maybe a speech therapist too!!!!!

 

[Gludy]

"They come aboard whether you like it or not"
Spot on and they have that power now as well as not being too keen to remove their big boots! There have already been incidents with people sailing from UK port to UK port.

 

[MoodySabre]

Thanks for letting us know.

I find most people are realistic and understanding whoever they are. Our initial attitude is all important.

You're welcome. Attitude is the thing - those who thrive on confrontation will receive some back and deservedly so.

 

[Seven Spades]

Puffing

I have got to say this write to your MP. I have written several letters it is very important that they get wind of the seriousness of this issue. If one man can make a stink about seahorses why can't we all make a much bigger noise?

 

[Sailfree]

So all in all I thought that some measure of common sense was being applied and the onus on leisure boaters will not be significant.

Stop being stupid surely you must have learnt by now that government employees never use common sense.

Recent examples

R4 this morning Farmers are told not to take their tractors on the public road to get through the snow and help motorists as they are using red diesel.

CCTV used to proscecute drivers stopping outside their homes (yellow lines) to drop off their shopping also if you stop to read a map or answer the mobile!

Just read Apache Dawn -2 examples- Temps in Afganistan get so hot that rockets loaded on Apache can spontaneously combust. Solution make adjacent sandbag protection adjacent to Apache so that rockets can be protected but quickly loaded in event of a shout! MOD H & S state not safe as a tripping hazard and not the prescribed way. Pilots asked H & S to sit on rocket while it heats up in the sun - Pilots won that one. After dodging RPG and missiles pilots return for rearming and refreshment and handed preserved flaky sausage rolls that stick in throat. Egg & Bacon rolls not allowed as H & S state Bacon may go off in the heat - Pilots lost that one - FFS

Just got MCA notice this morning to renew registration for £49 or £124 after expiry. Just another government charge to pay for some jobsworths.

Don't get me started on speed cameras only placed behind signs on downhillstretches of dual carriageway where every experienced driver's sense informs them that a safe speed is higher than the artificially low limit set yet no cameras on housing estates with kids or outside schools or hospitals!!

Can we just accept that soon most employment will be from the government and everyone must be charged/fined for everything they do and the possibilities of e borders is making them rub their hands with glee!!

MP setting expenses rules for themselves while stiching us all up reminds me somewhat of Nero fiddling while Rome burns.

Please someone convince me I am wrong and there is hope for ordinary people!

Am I suffering from New Year/Snow blues or am I realistic?

 

[Gludy]

You are realistic..... maybe now in a minority though!

Its is the government who are doing the confronting with stupid wasteful proposals - an unworkable law that lowers border security and costs a lot of our money.

I have tried the polite letters and when you explain the problems they stop answering you. This is because they have no answer.

Explaining why their planned system cannot work is not confrontation.

I find it difficult to swallow I line that states that if we are meek the law will somehow start working ....... that does not make sense.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Whilst I wouldn't call MoodySabre 'stupid', I think he is naive if he thinks that even being deferential to a UKBA official won't prevent him from prosecuting for breaking even the smallest rule.

The man at LIBs was saying what you wanted to hear, but when the chips are down, break the rules and you will get 'done'. Of that I have no doubt.

I hope that one of you will ask at the UKBA stand this weekend how they can justify saying:

"As to the specific scenarion (sic) he said that technically they could prosecute but he would ask 3 things:
1. would the man on the Clapham omnibus say that I had acted reasonably - of course he would.
2. Was there any intent by me to break the law - well no.
3. If he prosecuted would he have a case - of course not."

And also question the other statement ModdySabre reported that: "the idea is that you will pre-register withe website and set up your favourite or likely trips. When you plan to go on a trip you send them a text message code and the job is done." when that has not appeared on any of the consultation documents I have seen.

A good question to him would be, " Are you making up the regulations as you go along."

But the best statement was, "they wouldn't roll out the system for boaters until it was working and easy."

I'm still laughing at that one.

 

[glashen]

A lot of the problem here is that we still seem to be waiting for actual proposals of how E-borders is to be implemented for the Yachtsman. If anyone can point me to such proposals I would be grateful, in the meantime we are trying to guess how it will work in practice on pretty scanty information.

I find MoodySabre's post encouraging, but am reluctant to assume that the borders agency will always do the right thing and shall still be watching for the actual proposals.

 

[MoodySabre]

Whilst I wouldn't call MoodySabre 'stupid', I think he is naive if he thinks that even being deferential to a UKBA official won't prevent him from prosecuting for breaking even the smallest rule.

Thank you - I don't think anyone would call me stupid. I don't think I'm naive either - I spent my working life dealing with taxmen and VATmen etc so I know how it goes. I am not deferential to anybody. I am a pragmatist however and unstressed.

It is not the rules that they are making up as they go but a system they are developing to make it work sensibly. Give them a chance I say. The law is on the statute book. If, once in operation, it proves unworkable then that will be the time for taking a stance.

 

[binch]

coming home

When we go on a long cryuise (5 years say) we do not know when (or even if) we will return or by what route.
Our boat is at present overseas, but we may have to return on board to England sometime.
We do not use internet while on board.
We do not watch British TV or read British newspapers.
I thought we were all entitled to go to sea without let or hindrance.
How long a sentence will we get?

 

[Gludy]

"And also question the other statement ModdySabre reported that: "the idea is that you will pre-register withe website and set up your favourite or likely trips. When you plan to go on a trip you send them a text message code and the job is done." when that has not appeared on any of the consultation documents I have seen."

That is because that is without any doubt at all not the proposed system.
It is the people on your boat for the trip that are registered and you have to give details individual to each trip. I have gone into this in some detail and I can assure you that right from the top man at the agency - you have to log in on the internet and give details for each trip.... fact. These details include all sorts of data about each person on board.

In any case is there even any sense if pre-registering trips - how many outside the UK trips do you register? How can a simple code give the certification of all those aboard, departure dates and times for the trip ... it cannot do this.

We do know what is being proposed and it is compulsory web posting of each outside the UK trip with a lot of passenger details plus destination details. This is to be done within 24 hours of departure (not before) but can be done the minute you depart!

You could even be 10 miles out, decide to go to France and then log in (assuming sat internet access on the boat) and report the trip.

The data has no meaning any any element of border security being increased is a myth.

Its a game to look good run by an inadequate government employing people work live to create work for themselves.

I know a company recent cases were magistrates have had to impose fines even though they stated the case was madness and there should be no fine but they had no choice.

It is plain wrong to impose laws that could penalise the innocent, remove civil rights and make our borders even less secure but that is what is being done.

 

[rallyveteran]

It is not the rules that they are making up as they go but a system they are developing to make it work sensibly.

...but why is the consultation being conducted in secret with, AFAIK, only the RYA who have also chosen to be bound by secrecy. Wouldn't the money that UKBA are spending on manning a stand at Excel get a better return if the latest form of the proposals had been spelt out in advance so that everyone coming to the stand to talk about it knows where they are without a long explanation? Why isn't there the opportunity to have questions to the UKBA and their answers also shown in public, so that we can build on what has gone before? What consultation is taking place with yachtsmen based overseas, and their representative organisations?

The law is on the statute book.

...but they still have the freedom to implement it in a wide variety of ways, so this is exactly the time that consultation should be carried out in its fullest sense.

 

[Ubergeekian]

The way this might work is that:

- UKBA craft lurks around the Needles and takes an interest in craft approaching from a cross channel course using radar
- They attempt to identify craft (how? VHF? AIS? Binocs?)
- Quick search on a system to see if the voyage was registered
- If yes, then all well, on your way sir, beret removed and replaced

So if I want to smuggle Somalians and/or heroin into the UK, all I have to do is let them know in advance that I'm coming. I know it's their cunning plan, not yours, but this has not, I feel, been well thought out.

 

[rallyveteran]

Stop being stupid surely you must have learnt by now that government employees never use common sense.

Recent examples...

In addition to your examples, may I cite that of the London Congestion Charge whose finances depend on the ability to fine people for forgetfulness. I live in the zone and in about half the weeks of the year I drive 100 yards to the edge of the zone, for which I have to pay £4 on the day, with no reminder being provided. If I forget, which I have done four times, it costs me £60. I would gladly prefund my account to cover the charge, or set up a direct debit for it, but there features are not allowed because they would lose the revenue from fines. The only way I can avoid the fines completely would be to pay £208 for what is effectively an annual permit to drive round London all day every day.

So here we have:
(a) a control on movement
(b) with internet filing of data
(c) a charge for normal use and
(d) significant fines for any transgressions

Sound familiar?

The local government employees who designed it may have used common sense but they also saw the chance to raise money from people they thought were rich enough to pay and who couldn't do anything about it.

Watch this space with e-borders for yachts.

 

[capsco]

Thank you - I don't think anyone would call me stupid. I don't think I'm naive either - I spent my working life dealing with taxmen and VATmen etc so I know how it goes. I am not deferential to anybody. I am a pragmatist however and unstressed.

It is not the rules that they are making up as they go but a system they are developing to make it work sensibly. Give them a chance I say. The law is on the statute book. If, once in operation, it proves unworkable then that will be the time for taking a stance.

How many innocent people have to be procecuted before we do this?