A chat with e-borders at the boat show

[Major Catastrophe]

Whilst what you say might appear to be true, proscecutions only succeed when a jury finds you guilty.

Except that you will be 'tried' by a magistrate in a magistrates court or given a fixed penalty notice, which basically concludes you are guilty and any attempt to challenge the fine will result in it being increased.

Poster have already pointed out to MoodySabre that fluffy words promising proportionate response to people who didn't quite follow the rules, but in this country that will mean you will get prosecuted. It is the way civil servants work here.

the idea is that you will pre-register withe website and set up your favourite or likely trips. When you plan to go on a trip you send them a text message code and the job is done.

I see. That is a new one on me and a licence for any people smuggler to preregister and drop off the radar because he complies with the real aim of e-borders, which is to track our every move.

3. If he prosecuted would he have a case - of course not.

Yes he would. You didn't follow the procedure laid down, so you are guilty and your prosecution will bolster the evidence to show how successful e-borders is at catching 'criminals'.

 

[earlybird]

Being a short-distance, West coast cruiser, I've viewed e-borders as a potential annoyance for others. It's just occurred to me that it might also apply to the Irish Republic. Can anyone say what the situation will be?

 

[Ubergeekian]

Being a short-distance, West coast cruiser, I've viewed e-borders as a potential annoyance for others. It's just occurred to me that it might also apply to the Irish Republic. Can anyone say what the situation will be?

There were reports that it would apply there too: there were proposals to close many of the smaller border crossings and introduce security points at the others. What they proposed to do about all the miles of countryside I have no idea. There was also talk of passports to be needed for trip to Norn Iron, which would have gone down well with the boys in the majorette costumes and bowler hats.

Now ... god knows. Like everything else this inept Westminster Government and clueless Civil Service try to do, policy seems to be made up on the hoof.

 

[rallyveteran]

On the majority of cross-channel sailing trips:
(a) all the crew have the right to live in the UK
(b) the trips are there and back with the same people are on board in both directions.

I don't see why UKBA are interested in these trips for immigration purposes.

I think the only reason these thousands of trips are going to have to be registered in advance is to satisfy the secondary objective of e-borders which is to identify passengers who are "a potential risk". Where the first leg is out of the country this presumably covers serious offenders such as those who are on the run from the police. Given that these are the very people who are not going to provide advance information, I can't see that the reams of information provided by law abiding people in categories (a) and (b) above is going to help anyone.

And as for the man from UKBA at the LIBS being pleasant ... this is clearly a tactic. I will be visiting their stand at letting them know that I think the whole system is bo11ox. (Rather more constructively, I will be saying the same to all the MPs I come across.)

 

[daveyw]

Of course if they prosecute and the case fails. Do they pay your legal fees? Do they pay for your mooring fees whilst your yacht was impounded? Do they pay for the damage to your boat that occured while it was impounded. Do they compensate you for a lost season of sailing?

 

[sailorman]

Nobody has yet addressed the Jonny Foreigner arriving from a Shengen Country & what procedures / hoops he & his crew have to jump through

 

[Gludy]

This pre-registering of a number of trips is not the case.
Nor is texting etc

It has to be via their web site and you have to register before departure and when returning. Each trip is a different registration.

They do have a right of search yes but what are they going to do search every boat around our shores? What a waste of time. They have no way of knowing where you are traveling form or to.

If they search and find your passports that you have refused to show them it does not prove anything because you have a right not to show the passports if you did not land outside the UK - even if you went just 100 foot from the shore in France.

Even if you called into Cherbourg they have no way of knowing that you did or did not.

The system relies on a pile of crumbly information that will be in chaos - reports of s trip when a crewman did not turn up will mean they think he is out of the country when he is not and it could be a month or more before that is reported if ever! Reports after people have landed saying that had engine trouble and so changed port ... done when they get to their internet connection..... where is the control in that? They are already in the country! The list goes on and included those traveling here from outside the UK who made no report in advance because they had no internet access at their last port.

Catching illegals leaving? How when if they were stupid enough to report themselves they would have left as they report reaches the internet site?

Its like identity cards - unless everyone is forced to carry them they have no security meaning as those without them choose to be without them and an illegal would be amongst many legitimate citizens.

Then there is the inevitable government IT foul up and costs as the system fails and fails but there is a pretence of it working. Careers are built on it and out freedom to travel is restricted.

It is nothing like arriving at a country with a yellow flag and reporting in when you are there - there is in compulsory advanced internet reporting.

The head of the entire organisation wrote to me without answering a single point and I have received no response since I pointed this out and asked for answers.


The same resources could be used to make a real difference to our borders but that requires common sense and experience - attributes totally lacking in this government.

 

[Gludy]

"Nobody has yet addressed the Jonny Foreigner arriving from a Shengen Country & what procedures / hoops he & his crew have to jump through"

He has to register on the same internet site before he arrives in the UK.
There is no difference.

 

[Sandyman]

''The same resources could be used to make a real difference to our borders but that requires common sense and experience - attributes totally lacking in this government''

Come on, lets face it, everything this poxy Government has ever touched has turned out to be a total balls up. Why should eboarders be any different ?

Its all about Control.

This country becomes more like a communist state every day.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Nobody has yet addressed the Jonny Foreigner arriving from a Shengen Country & what procedures / hoops he & his crew have to jump through

He has to register on the same internet site before he arrives in the UK.
There is no difference.

Ah yes, of course every sailor in every Schengen country will know that before he can land in the UK he has to notify the UKBA via the internet that he is coming.

Either we are going to have a lot of naive Europeans in custody or the system is doomed to failure.

 

[Searush]

Just one more aspect of Govt behaviour (this is completely apolitical - make no mistake, the tories will be just as bad, if not worse) is the following;

1/ introduce ill-considered law in response to perceived problem
2/ realise it is ineffective, so try to clamp-down on "Offenders"
3/ introduce targets to enforce clamp-down
4/ targets lead to enforcers focussing on the easy convictions - You & I
5/ innocent yotties end up in clink


Just look at past Govt performance on other "initiatives" - am I wrong?

 

[[2068]]

The way this might work is that:

- UKBA craft lurks around the Needles and takes an interest in craft approaching from a cross channel course using radar
- They attempt to identify craft (how? VHF? AIS? Binocs?)
- Quick search on a system to see if the voyage was registered
- If yes, then all well, on your way sir, beret removed and replaced
- If no, then RIB deployed, blue lights, errm, sorry sir, would you like to step this way for the full cavity body search

 

[MoodySabre]

This pre-registering of a number of trips is not the case.
Nor is texting etc

It has to be via their web site and you have to register before departure and when returning. Each trip is a different registration.

I have told you of the conversation that I had today with someone clearly involved with the scheme. We shall see in due course.

 

[Searush]

The way this might work is that:

- UKBA craft lurks around the Needles and takes an interest in craft approaching from a cross channel course using radar
- They attempt to identify craft (how? VHF? AIS? Binocs?)
- Quick search on a system to see if the voyage was registered
- If yes, then all well, on your way sir, beret removed and replaced
- If no, then RIB deployed, blue lights, errm, sorry sir, would you like to step this way for the full cavity body search

And this guy pops up from round the back of the island's radar shadow & they jump on him coz he hasn't registered this trip on the system. "But I've only sailed round the island" he says . . . Now, does he have to prove he hasn't been to France or do they have to prove he has? Bollox innit?

I raced across the channel once, we arrived in Cherbourg at 5.00am. It was closed, but I left the marina & went for a walk - just so I could say I had been to France (first time, see). Others more sensible & better travelled than I stayed on board & fell asleep. Now, would my journey need reporting but not theirs? Or does the simple fact of berthing in the marina without disembarking (or maybe anchoring for the night) constitute a visit that needs to be registered?

It's all just so wishy washy & pointless beaurocracy.

 

[rallyveteran]

The way this might work is that:

- UKBA craft lurks around the Needles and takes an interest in craft approaching from a cross channel course using radar
- They attempt to identify craft (how? VHF? AIS? Binocs?)
- Quick search on a system to see if the voyage was registered
- If yes, then all well, on your way sir, beret removed and replaced
- If no, then RIB deployed, blue lights, errm, sorry sir, would you like to step this way for the full cavity body search

- but e-borders applies equally to vessels leaving as well as departing. That's how they think they are going to stop escaped murderers leaving the country. The UKBA RIB is going to need some range if its mother ship is based at the Needles and they are going to intercept unregistered vessels entering Cherbourg / Alderney etc etc.
- the Needles may seem like a smart place to wait for arriving hordes, but they could get a bit busy on the body searches round Dover come the middle of July once the Dutch and other Europeans start arriving (assuming they still come, of course).
- Identification is going to be harder in (a) the dark and (b) fog.
- If registration of a journey is going to be enough to get waived through, we yotties are going to rumble this and get a lot less careful checking which crew happen to be on board. Won't make a figs worth of difference to the reality of Border control, of course, but it will make all the effort seem unnecessary

 

[Gludy]

I have had the system explained to me in writing by the boss of the Border Force - there is no doubt you register each journey. Do not forget you have to register when you go who is on board and when you plan to come back - all before you leave. It is not a case of wait and see - the fact is that the low levels manning the LBS stand do not understand their own plans.

The two old chaps who were stopped and searched etc on the south coast were going from port to port within the UK - they were told that when the scheme comes in they would need to show passports - that is untrue but is an indication of the lack of understanding by the front line people.

As regards lying in wait with radar - radar does not name the boat and the vast majority of radar contents would be exempt boats with journeys within the UK .... it is not viable.

I agree we move and more towards a Big Brother state every day. I am escaping it later this month.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

I am escaping it later this month.

Can I come with you? You've plenty of room.

 

[Searush]

The only possible value I can see in this (& this may be why they want it) is that they will focus on intelligence gathering just as they do now. If a "dodgy" journey is identified, they will check to see if it is registered, if not, they have a valid reason to detain, arrest & search. If it is registered, they can still stop & search & check the details - any discrepancy from filed report again gives them the excuse to detain & arrest. The "victim" has committed an offence, there will be no defence. Common sense is not often to be found in a court of law.

Woe betide any innocent caught up in the system. Mistaken identity, malicious or even mistaken reporting of "suspicious" circumstances, border guard having a bad day or needing to fill his quota of arrests etc etc.

 

[maxi77]

I thought the gentleman on the e-borders stand was trying to be reasonable and understanding. He didn't invent the scheme so there was no point in being unfriendly.

I put forward the scenario and leaving Ostend for Harwich in a bit of a blow, 2 hours out you say sod this for a lark and make for Neuiwport and 3 days later arrive in Ramsgate. How does that work?

Well he said - the idea is that you will pre-register withe website and set up your favourite or likely trips. When you plan to go on a trip you send them a text message code and the job is done. He said they weren't out to make life difficult for me - what they wanted was to reduce the size of the haystack in which they looked for a needle. By me registering I am removed from their haystack. As to the specific scenarion he said that technically they could prosecute but he would ask 3 things:
1. would the man on the Clapham omnibus say that I had acted reasonably - of course he would.
2. Was there any intent by me to break the law - well no.
3. If he prosecuted would he have a case - of course not.

So all in all I thought that some measure of common sense was being applied and the onus on leisure boaters will not be significant. I did tell him that sailing was one of the great freedoms and there was some resentment at control-freakery. He understood this and said they wouldn't roll out the system for boaters until it was working and easy.

Not worth getting worked up over IMHO. Accept the inevitable and get on with enjoying yourelf.

So your reasonable serpent agrees that despite your intention to comply you will be technically contrav eneing the law and thus depending on his our one of his colleagues good will to avoid a criminal conviction.

I do not think this is a reasonable situation. How can it be proper for some one who has done all within their ability to comply with what would appear to be a flawed law to be technicaly guilty of a criminal offence and thus depending on the good will of a civil serpent for his/her freedom.

If this system is going to both catch the real illegal, and avoid persecuting the inocent they really do hav e to rethink their ideas

 

[Gludy]

"f a "dodgy" journey is identified, they will check to see if it is registered, if not, they have a valid reason to detain, arrest & search."

They can search any boat anyway but they cannot arrest unless they have reasonable evidence that you are on a journey that should have been registered when it is not. They have no way of telling if you landed in France or not. They have no way of telling that you are out for a sail or heading to another UK port.

I think there are only 5 big E-border boats and there are many, many thousands of miles of coastline. The whole thing is ludicrous - a terrorist would not sail in via the Solent if he knew there was an e-border boat there.

It does nothing whatsoever to secure our borders - it makes them less secure by squandering resources and living in pretend world as some sort of displacement behaviour.

I am stopped 15 miles across the channel heading for France - I have an illegal/criminal on board - all I say is that we are out for a sail along the french coast and back - we do not have to produce any papers - they have no way of knowing we have the illegal on board. The fact that we could change our mind and land in France is outside their control.


We are going to report our crew and as we leave for Spain we report our crew in an Internet Cafe in the marina - unknown to us one is a wanted criminal. We are way out in the wide blue yonder before any possible system can be called in and it would take great resources to catch us.

We are bringing in an illegal - the same points apply - we state that we left Swansea and went for a sail to test the boat - we do not have to produce any papers.

It is total madness set up by a government that is incapable of reasoned thought.