A chat with e-borders at the boat show

[MoodySabre]

I thought the gentleman on the e-borders stand was trying to be reasonable and understanding. He didn't invent the scheme so there was no point in being unfriendly.

I put forward the scenario and leaving Ostend for Harwich in a bit of a blow, 2 hours out you say sod this for a lark and make for Neuiwport and 3 days later arrive in Ramsgate. How does that work?

Well he said - the idea is that you will pre-register withe website and set up your favourite or likely trips. When you plan to go on a trip you send them a text message code and the job is done. He said they weren't out to make life difficult for me - what they wanted was to reduce the size of the haystack in which they looked for a needle. By me registering I am removed from their haystack. As to the specific scenarion he said that technically they could prosecute but he would ask 3 things:
1. would the man on the Clapham omnibus say that I had acted reasonably - of course he would.
2. Was there any intent by me to break the law - well no.
3. If he prosecuted would he have a case - of course not.

So all in all I thought that some measure of common sense was being applied and the onus on leisure boaters will not be significant. I did tell him that sailing was one of the great freedoms and there was some resentment at control-freakery. He understood this and said they wouldn't roll out the system for boaters until it was working and easy.

Not worth getting worked up over IMHO. Accept the inevitable and get on with enjoying yourelf.

 

[sailorman]

So there am i

a member of a Shengen Country wishing to arrive in the UK.
how does that work then

 

[Searush]

"But he would say that wouldn't he?" He's at the boat show. he's on our territory, he's trying to implement something deeply unpopular, so why antagonise you? He will be perfectly reasonable & you are lulled into thinking it's not that bad.

But once it is law, it will be implemented by little Hitlers (the law always is). You are now permanently in the wrong and the law is right. If they choose to be officious, you are stitched. Please see all the parking, speeding & VAT threads we get on the Lounge.

 

[NorthUp]

"But he would say that wouldn't he?"

Along the lines of anti- terrorist legislation being used against a pensioner at a labour party conference!

 

[Ubergeekian]

"But he would say that wouldn't he?" He's at the boat show. he's on our territory, he's trying to implement something deeply unpopular, so why antagonise you? He will be perfectly reasonable & you are lulled into thinking it's not that bad.

If the weather lets me get there, I have two questions I want to ask:

1. What proportion of illegal immigrants to the Uk arrive (a) on yachts and (b) on Channel Tunnel freight services?

2. What proportion of illegal immigrants is e-borders expected to intercept (a) on yachts and (b) on Channel Tunnel freight services?

 

[john_morris_uk]

"But he would say that wouldn't he?" He's at the boat show. he's on our territory, he's trying to implement something deeply unpopular, so why antagonise you? He will be perfectly reasonable & you are lulled into thinking it's not that bad.

But once it is law, it will be implemented by little Hitlers (the law always is). You are now permanently in the wrong and the law is right. If they choose to be officious, you are stitched. Please see all the parking, speeding & VAT threads we get on the Lounge.

Whilst what you say might appear to be true, proscecutions only succeed when a jury finds you guilty. The people who work for the agency might sometimes appear to be obnoxious but I try not to be paranoid about the consequences. Plenty of people moan about our lack of border controls, so it seems a bit rich to moan about an attempt to sort things out.

 

[lenseman]

. . . and the elderly retired couple who have no use at all with mobile phones and as far as the internet is concerned, it being the work of the devil, how do they get on. I know a few people like that and they don't appear in this forum, are they going to be penalised for non compliance!

As has been stated, sailing is the last freedom!

 

[sailorman]

Whilst what you say might appear to be true, proscecutions only succeed when a jury finds you guilty. The people who work for the agency might sometimes appear to be obnoxious but I try not to be paranoid about the consequences. Plenty of people moan about our lack of border controls, so it seems a bit rich to moan about an attempt to sort things out.

coming through check @ stansted on 26/12 i told the ukba chappie who checked me in he needed some manners & to be less aggressive as the Spaniards are

 

[Boathook]

I thought the gentleman on the e-borders stand was trying to be reasonable and understanding. He didn't invent the scheme so there was no point in being unfriendly.

I put forward the scenario and leaving Ostend for Harwich in a bit of a blow, 2 hours out you say sod this for a lark and make for Neuiwport and 3 days later arrive in Ramsgate. How does that work?

Well he said - the idea is that you will pre-register withe website and set up your favourite or likely trips. When you plan to go on a trip you send them a text message code and the job is done. He said they weren't out to make life difficult for me - what they wanted was to reduce the size of the haystack in which they looked for a needle. By me registering I am removed from their haystack. As to the specific scenarion he said that technically they could prosecute but he would ask 3 things:
1. would the man on the Clapham omnibus say that I had acted reasonably - of course he would.
2. Was there any intent by me to break the law - well no.
3. If he prosecuted would he have a case - of course not.

So all in all I thought that some measure of common sense was being applied and the onus on leisure boaters will not be significant. I did tell him that sailing was one of the great freedoms and there was some resentment at control-freakery. He understood this and said they wouldn't roll out the system for boaters until it was working and easy.

Not worth getting worked up over IMHO. Accept the inevitable and get on with enjoying yourelf.

The staff at SIBS listened to me with great concern as well. They knew nothing about boating and just kept repeating the party line that if caught breaking the law you possibly would be punished. I suspect that they were employed for SIBS only as manning the front desk.

 

[MoodySabre]

a member of a Shengen Country wishing to arrive in the UK.
how does that work then

Are you?
Idon't know - I only asked him how it worked for me.

 

[sailorman]

Are you?
Idon't know - I only asked him how it worked for me.

we had the situation some 20 yrs ago whereby we the uk citizen had to check-in the furriners from Holland,Belgium,France didnt. the rules were eventually changed to what we now have
Now Jonny Furriner wants to come to the Fleshpots of the East Coast Wot does he do, phone up,text,email, just arrive

 

[mainsail1]

Eborders for sailors are Bonkers!

Somebody from Eborders needs to stop and think how a jumbled report from a sailor who does not know where he will end up is going to help to secure our borders. All it does is burden sailors with regulations for no useful purpose. Come on sailors, don't fall for the 'spin'!

 

[MoodySabre]

I should have guessed that the vosiferous minority would respond.

The point is that they don't want to officious - they are not trying to make life difficult. I don't like this kind of bureaucracy any more than anybody else, heavens above we have enough to put up with. At the end of the day you wil achieve nothing by being awkward - the civil servants who are at the front line are just doing their job and want it to be easy too.

Repeat - if your intent is not to break law but underlyingly to act reasonably then nobody is going to waste time on you. There will be means to deal with this for those who have no electronic means of communication, just as their is for buying your TV licence, taxing your car or paying your congestion charge.

As for those who suffer at the hands of VAT etc - in my long experience those who fulfil their obligations in a timely and correct manner have few problems. The nature of these things is that needs to be some sampling to verify the performance of the system - fact of life.

 

[MoodySabre]

Somebody from Eborders needs to stop and think how a jumbled report from a sailor who does not know where he will end up is going to help to secure our borders. All it does is burden sailors with regulations for no useful purpose. Come on sailors, don't fall for the 'spin'!

Well of course the whole concept is bonkers, particularly as it doesn't apply for trips from N. Ireland or cross-border. I hope it gets scrapped along with ID cards.

 

[Poignard]

My instinct is to oppose all new rules on principle but although this will be a bloody nuisance and an administrative nightmare, isn't it what ships have had to do for generations? Get "clearance" etc. for foreign ports.

 

[sailorman]

My tendency is to oppose all new rules on principle but although this will be a bloody nuisance and an administrative nightmare, isn't it what ships have had to do for generations? Get "clearance" etc.

countries signed up to Shengen dont have to within Shengen & possibly the same coming here

 

[Sandyman]

They can ''spin'' it all they like. I wont be taking part. Same as ID cards...........they can stick em where the monkey hides his nuts.

 

[WoodyP]

The reality of most people would suggest to me that cross channel/North sea trips are not a weekly occurence, so not too great an imposition in the overall amount of preparation that you should have to do in any case.

Point taken about the "reasonable Man" and the balance of evidence, however, one little Hitler can make your life hell if he doesn't like the way you look at him. Bit like the police really. Trying to stand in the way is like hissing in the wind. Its the way of the world now, you don't need to get so worked up that the rest of your life is ruined.

I don't think I would make a very good revolutionary!
Fair winds.

 

[Gludy]

" Plenty of people moan about our lack of border controls, so it seems a bit rich to moan about an attempt to sort things out."

BUT this is reducing border control bt squandering limited resources without effect!!

If I am stopped mid channel all I can refuse to produce papers and passports by saying I do not need them because I never landed in France. The patrol boat cannot force me to porduce papers on a trip that does not land anyone outside the UK.!!!

Anyone can refuse to produce papers and they cannot do a thing about it. Its just like having the international departure lounge at Heathrow with a an unsupervided gate that anyone can walk through either way and have a right to do so. So if you stop someone inside the lounge you have no right to have them produce their passport!!!

Also I have a letter from the assistant chief executive of the e-border stating that when you have to change ports in a storm you report the change AFTER you have landed by logging onto to their site!!!! How does that control anyone??

It is wrong to be outside the law even technically when all you have done it taken shelter in another port than the one planned. It should not be at the discretion of some civil servant wether I am branded a criminal or not - prosecution for a border violation would probably prevent me traveling to the USA and many other places.

The proposed system is not only unworkable it actually damages real border control by consuming a lot of effort for nothing instead of sensibly using those resources for real border control.

Its the same with profiling at the borders. Lack of profiling means that for PC reasons the resources are spread wide when they could be targeted to much greater effect and so for PC reasons the innocent are exposed to a greater danger than they need be.

 

[lenseman]

. . . . If I am stopped mid channel all I can refuse to produce papers and passports . . . . Anyone can refuse to produce papers and they cannot do a thing about it. . . . .

But they can climb on board and rummage your yacht until the find them and they apparently have full legal rights to do this!