A better Soft Shackle?

[zoidberg]

It's dull, being Sunday pm, and wi' a heavy grumbling raincloud gathering overhead my going poking about disturbing things in the garden will only provoke a downpour!
Among my many nerdy interests are how best to make and use a clutch of soft shackles. A question was raised. I thought to raise it also here...

Some have expressed concern that the end-loop can slide open when cyclically unloaded, and slip off the GreatBigKnot it's fastened around. Looking for a cheap 'n cheerful answer, I mused that the quite stiff - and slightly overlength - antichafe sleeve might suffice.

But what, I thought, if the sleeve became floppy with flapping? More restraint might be needed. A job, methinks, for very cheap/cheerful reusable cable ties.

( sleeve removed for clarity )

Cable ties could be fiddly, with cold wet fingers on a stormy night hanging over the side. What might a hoary old master mariner or a Boy Sprout of yesteryear have done?

Some old timers might recognise the form of a Hybrid Sheetbend....

Is there any merit in any of this, I ask of Thinwater et al, or should I stop worrying and go play some Solitaire until the storm passes....?

 

[noelex]

This innovation with soft shackles in particular, and Dyneema in general is great to see. These are relatively new products and I think you are going to see some significant improvements in the near future.

A few comments from wife who is much more in tune with nuances of this rope work:

Soft shackles very rarely come undone. We have never had one inadvertently release and we use many of these in conditions where there are cyclic loads such as the chain to snubber connection and headsail sheet attachment. However, anything is possible so for a particularly critical load there is nothing wrong some extra security for complete peace of mind, but this will only be very rarely justified.

The idea of a sheetbend is a good one, but there is some risk of this jamming under load in this situation.

If using a cable tie it should be placed on the narrowest part at the base of the eye where the crossover occurs (see photo below). Placing the cable tie as shown in post#1 narrows the throat angle and may potentially weaken the soft shackle.

Keep up the good work.

 

[thinwater]

I wonder where the extra security is useful? We mostly use soft shackles where quick, no-tool removal is important, and it would have to be a use where coming open (requires flogging or shagging) is critical. That narrows it down.

• Not snubbers. Too much trouble.
• Head sail sheets for some but not others (depends on how often removed).
• Halyards for jibs on furlers (but I would argue chafe is a problem so metal is better).
• Not most blocks (no risk of coming loose and not critical), but no harm either.
• Not sail tack or clew (won't come off, not critical).

Just the extra step of being SURE it is closed properly is enough in nearly all applications (as Nolex said). Of course, installing the zip tie makes certain that step is taken, which has some value.

Interesting. But no place I have actually used a soft shackle. They don't come off easily enough for it to be a concern in my applications.

 

[zoidberg]

Lots of respect for 'noelex' and his renowned lady. And 'thinwater' too ( but don't tell him I said so! )

It's just about thinking - and listening - about stuff. I'm also aware that a 'soft shackle' can be made up in other stuff than single-braid Dyneema.

 

[MontyMariner]

I reckon that if, when constructed, the constriction is a smaller diameter than the rope it is going to constrict around it won't need any extra locking.

 

[Neeves]

Lots of respect for 'noelex' and his renowned lady. And 'thinwater' too ( but don't tell him I said so! )

It's just about thinking - and listening - about stuff. I'm also aware that a 'soft shackle' can be made up in other stuff than single-braid Dyneema.

I understand, though can find no confirmation, that soft shackles were used decades ago - and long before even polyester became common place. The suggestion might be they were made from hemp - and if so, were found to be useful. All that has happened recently is that Dyneema has become the new hemp. Because splicing etc is therapeutic, short lengths of rope keep looking for uses, the art of the soft shackle has become the means to fill a dark evening (and use those short lengths of rope) - but then with so many soft shackles being made we need to find a use for them....

Many applications for soft shackles could equally be filled with a soft shackle made from polyester, a bit of bungy....... We found bungy useful in that if you forgot to remove the bungy - a simply bit of pressure broke the bungy and the developing problem disappeared.

I do find there is an almost religious fervour on the use of soft shackles and contempt for those that are not adherents.

I tested some Dyneema soft shackles made for me by Corderie Lancelin and all of their soft shackles were made with a generous dyneema sleeve.


Has anyone any back ground suggesting soft shackles are actually 'new' and not decades old?

Jonathan

 

[Metalicmike]

If the loops of the soft shackle are equal when the locking loop is closed or the line passing through the other is slightly shorter then it is impossible for the locking loop to open whilst under the slightest of tension (eg its own weight).

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

Maybe older than that I've been using what I think I saw on my father's boat. A fat stopper (admiralty stopper?) and a bowline sized for the knot to just fit through as a thing to hold ropes for decades now.

You clove hitch it to a guardrail and use it to hang ropes. Hard to explain but you must have seen it.

 

[noelex]

Many applications for soft shackles could equally be filled with a soft shackle made from polyester, a bit of bungy.......

The “recent” advance that has spurred developments in soft shackles is the availability of high strength Dyneema (and other HMWPE fibres). These can have the equivalent or greater strength of metal shackles (such as stainless steel). This was not feasible before the development of these high strength fibers.

There are advantages in using HMWPE soft shackles rather than stainless steel shackles such as the isolation of dissimilar metal corrosion, the reduction in weight and noise etc, but there are also some situations where a metal shackle is better. We use both.

I cannot understand the resistance to using soft shackles where they are superior.

Of course soft shackles can be made from less strong rope (providing a low strength is acceptable for the application), but HMWPE is cheap enough these days (see Soft shackle ). The £5 shackle in the link has a strength of around 40,000 Lb.

There is little economic advantage and considerable practical drawbacks in spending the time and trouble in constructing (or purchasing) a soft shackle from polyester rather than HWWPE.

In practice the vast majority of soft shackles are constructed from HWWPE rather than polyester for good reason.

 

[thinwater]

I understand, though can find no confirmation, that soft shackles were used decades ago - and long before even polyester became common place. The suggestion might be they were made from hemp - and if so, were found to be useful. All that has happened recently is that Dyneema has become the new hemp. Because splicing etc is therapeutic, short lengths of rope keep looking for uses, the art of the soft shackle has become the means to fill a dark evening (and use those short lengths of rope) - but then with so many soft shackles being made we need to find a use for them....

Many applications for soft shackles could equally be filled with a soft shackle made from polyester, a bit of bungy....... We found bungy useful in that if you forgot to remove the bungy - a simply bit of pressure broke the bungy and the developing problem disappeared.

I do find there is an almost religious fervour on the use of soft shackles and contempt for those that are not adherents.

I tested some Dyneema soft shackles made for me by Corderie Lancelin and all of their soft shackles were made with a generous dyneema sleeve.


Has anyone any back ground suggesting soft shackles are actually 'new' and not decades old?

Jonathan

I've see references to this simpler sort (knotted strop) going WAY back. Also toggle variations. But I don't think single braid was common before synthetics. Hemp does not like it.

Knotted strops work better with hemp or even polyester than Dyneema because of the higher friction. Very likely the knotted strop was perfectly secure in high-friction hemp, not needing improvement for its intended uses. It could not have competed with steel shackles.

 

[Neeves]

There are advantages in using HMWPE soft shackles rather than stainless steel shackles such as the isolation of dissimilar metal corrosion, the reduction in weight and noise etc, but there are also some situations where a metal shackle is better. We use both.

I cannot understand the resistance to using soft shackles where they are superior.

Many owners of yachts do not use dyneema, polyester is more than adequate. I don't know but guess that unless you specify otherwise your running rigging will be polyester on a new AWB, Ben, Jen, Bav. Most second hand AWBs will still use polyester or a wire halyard for the main. Many owners don't know what a soft shackle is - and manage to live quite happily without them, in the same way they might use a Delta anchor and have no idea what a snubber is.

Sadly not everyone is a member of YBW, nor any other forum.

Its not resistance - its simply a lack of knowledge and or an inability to consider a fancy bit of rope instead of a stainless shackle.

Stainless shackles with all their faults have been used with complete success for decades, many. Soft shackles and dyneema are still the new kids on the block.

Go round a marina, a mooring field or a popular anchorage with a bit of a breeze - its not shackles you hear but the clanking of the wire halyard on the mast. There is some way to go before dyneema becomes commonplace.

Jonathan

 

[Roberto]

Is there any merit in any of this,

I guess the main merit might be making you feel "safer".
FWIW I use soft shackles in many applications, not one has ever come undone so I never felt the need to add any locking system, nor I would.
I also have one that by construction (it has to be the tightest possible around the boom) has the loop which remains relatively wide open, it never went loose.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Many owners of yachts do not use dyneema, polyester is more than adequate. I don't know but guess that unless you specify otherwise your running rigging will be polyester on a new AWB, Ben, Jen, Bav. Most second hand AWBs will still use polyester or a wire halyard for the main. Many owners don't know what a soft shackle is - and manage to live quite happily without them, in the same way they might use a Delta anchor and have no idea what a snubber is.

Sadly not everyone is a member of YBW, nor any other forum.

Its not resistance - its simply a lack of knowledge and or an inability to consider a fancy bit of rope instead of a stainless shackle.

Stainless shackles with all their faults have been used with complete success for decades, many. Soft shackles and dyneema are still the new kids on the block.

Go round a marina, a mooring field or a popular anchorage with a bit of a breeze - its not shackles you hear but the clanking of the wire halyard on the mast. There is some way to go before dyneema becomes commonplace.

Jonathan

Our harbour has a great predominance of traditional boats. Yarmouth worships the gaffer, we, with a folding tri stand out like a sore thumb. However, when you get up close to a good half of the gaffers, you notice something else, something we have in common. They no longer use wire everywhere, or a length of chain for a bobstay. They have embraced dyneema, and have gone back to the days when a seaman rigged his own boat. A lot of them have more dyneema rigging than we do. They don’t have roller jibs with wire inside the furler for starters. They have soft shackles for the sails, and ball bearing blocks clad in varnished wood. A quiet revolution.

 

[Stemar]

Go round a marina, a mooring field or a popular anchorage with a bit of a breeze - its not shackles you hear but the clanking of the wire halyard on the mast.

From that point of view, polyester - or dyneema, for that matter - are just as bad. Tie your bloody halyards off when you leave the boat!

The main use I have for a soft shackle - cheapy rope, because it doesn't need to be that strong, is to dangle from the genoa clew to clip the pole to when poled out, obviating the need for more string to hold the pole in place.

 

[B27]

Many owners of yachts do not use dyneema, polyester is more than adequate. I don't know but guess that unless you specify otherwise your running rigging will be polyester on a new AWB, Ben, Jen, Bav. Most second hand AWBs will still use polyester or a wire halyard for the main. Many owners don't know what a soft shackle is - and manage to live quite happily without them, in the same way they might use a Delta anchor and have no idea what a snubber is.

Sadly not everyone is a member of YBW, nor any other forum.

Its not resistance - its simply a lack of knowledge and or an inability to consider a fancy bit of rope instead of a stainless shackle.

Stainless shackles with all their faults have been used with complete success for decades, many. Soft shackles and dyneema are still the new kids on the block.

Go round a marina, a mooring field or a popular anchorage with a bit of a breeze - its not shackles you hear but the clanking of the wire halyard on the mast. There is some way to go before dyneema becomes commonplace.

Jonathan

I can't remember the last time I sailed a yacht with a wire halyard.
We have them on some dinghies, where it acts as the forestay when sailing.

Most boats come pre-equipped with stainless shackles which are perfectly satisfactory.
Some people like to change them because they can and they have nothing better to do.
Soft shackles and LFRs were 'news' 5 or more years ago, people went crazy putting them everywhere like teenagers adding bling to their mopeds.
I think I've got 3 soft shackles on my yacht and one on my dinghy.
Many places a cheaper stainless shackle or a simple knot does the job.
I do have a few things permanently spliced with dyneema where there were previously shackles.

Tyraps are ugly things, and prone to having sharp edges, a few stitches with a needle and thread does a better job?

 

[Neeves]

A different soft shackle, cheap as chips, or cheaper

25pcs Outdoor Camping Tent Elastic Strapping Rope Outdoor Multi Functional Bungee Rope Cable Management Elastic Strap 15cm | Shop On Temu And start Saving | Temu Australia

 

[Christopher877]

Jest nudno, jest niedziela po południu, a nad głową zbiera się ciężka, burcząca chmura deszczowa, a moje grzebanie w niepokojących rzeczach w ogrodzie sprowokuje tylko ulewę!
Wśród moich wielu nerdowskich zainteresowań jest to, jak najlepiej zrobić i używać sprzęgła z miękkich szekli. Padło pytanie. Pomyślałam, że poruszę go również tutaj...

Niektórzy wyrazili obawę, że pętla końcowa może się rozsunąć, gdy jest cyklicznie rozładowywana, i ześlizgnąć się z GreatBigKnot, wokół którego jest zamocowana. Szukając taniej i wesołej odpowiedzi, pomyślałem, że dość sztywny - i nieco za długi - rękaw przeciw otarciom może wystarczyć.

soft shackle is a good option, but yeah, it can loosen up. your idea with the abrasion sleeve sounds smart to stiffen it up a bit. just gotta get the length right, 'cause if it’s too long, it’ll get in the way.

Christopher

 

[Stemar]

A different soft shackle, cheap as chips, or cheaper

25pcs Outdoor Camping Tent Elastic Strapping Rope Outdoor Multi Functional Bungee Rope Cable Management Elastic Strap 15cm | Shop On Temu And start Saving | Temu Australia

I've seen people use something like that for sail ties - and get a sharp rap on the knuckles or worse when the ball end gets loose

 

[zoidberg]

zoidberg said:

Jest nudno, jest niedziela po południu, a nad głową zbiera się ciężka, burcząca chmura deszczowa, a moje grzebanie w niepokojących rzeczach w ogrodzie sprowokuje tylko ulewę!
Wśród moich wielu nerdowskich zainteresowań jest to, jak najlepiej zrobić i używać sprzęgła z miękkich szekli. Padło pytanie. Pomyślałam, że poruszę go również tutaj...

Niektórzy wyrazili obawę, że pętla końcowa może się rozsunąć, gdy jest cyklicznie rozładowywana, i ześlizgnąć się z GreatBigKnot, wokół którego jest zamocowana. Szukając taniej i wesołej odpowiedzi, pomyślałem, że dość sztywny - i nieco za długi - rękaw przeciw otarciom może wystarczyć.

Did I say that? Gosh....


Thinking back to the heyday of working sail on ships large and small, managing the very complex rigging and repairing it constantly was a primary skillset of a bo'sun. Ships large and small carried spare spars and cordage of varying strengths so that most of the rig could be repaired and/or replaced.

Certain rope/cordage lines and linkages were intended to part, to fail, when overloaded so that more valuable sails and spars were not carried away in a sudden blow. These days one might want, for example, a clew-line on a very expensive hybrid fabric mainsail or genoa to part, rather than the sail itself tear apart. Some keen racers might call such devices 'fuses' and skilled riggers can fit such items here and there where warranted.

I don't have the knowledge or skill to know 'what and where', but I do know it is both possible and practicable. Modern ropes may be more predictable in their Average Break Load than formerly. There seems little point in using a hefty Soft Shackle capable of 40,000lbs on a boat displacing <10,000lb. Perhaps 'noelex' and his good lady might be able to cast some light in this area.

 

[noelex]

Certain rope/cordage lines and linkages were intended to part, to fail, when overloaded so that more valuable sails and spars were not carried away in a sudden blow.

Interesting. I know there is some talk in catamaran circles about how to design an efficient system to automatically release the sheets at a predetermined point before the angle of heel reaches a critical level, but the idea of a "fuse" in sailing systems is obviously not new.

There seems little point in using a hefty Soft Shackle capable of 40,000lbs on a boat displacing <10,000lb. Perhaps 'noelex' and his good lady might be able to cast some light in this area.

Of course for the most part we want things on a sailboat that will not break. Unfortunately, for most sailboat components extra strength means extra weight and cost. This is not desirable. Strictly speaking this also applies to soft shackles. A stronger soft shackle will be heavier and more expensive than a weaker model, but in practice the difference (especially in terms of weight) is so tiny that it is not a consideration for a cruising yacht. A soft shackle with a 40,000 lb break force can be purchased for around £5 (or make your own).

Consequently at times we certainly use soft shackles that are stronger than they need to be. For example, just beside me is a jib sheet block that is held on by a soft shackle. The SWL of the soft shackle is around 5,000 kgf (breaking load of around 25,000 kgf), stronger than it needs to be, but why not? The same philosophy would not work for most other components. For example, if I chose a jib sheet/halyard/reefing line that was significantly stronger than needs to be, the result would be a heavy, difficult to handle and/or expensive line that would hurt the light wind performance of the sail. There are no such drawbacks in a stronger soft shackle providing it physically fits.